Will Spencer 00:00:00

My name is Will Spencer, and you're listening to the renaissance of Men podcast.

Will Spencer 00:00:04

My guest this week is a husband, father, pastor, and the host of the Shepherd's Crook podcast.

Will Spencer 00:00:10

Please welcome Jared Sparks.

Jared Sparks 00:00:15

You are the renaissance.

Will Spencer 00:00:19

When I started the renaissance of men in 2020, my sole vision in life was to help Mendez.

Will Spencer 00:00:25

That was a goal that I had for many years.

Will Spencer 00:00:28

In fact, the reason I set out to travel in the first place was because back in August 2015, I toured a renowned school that was offering degrees in psychotherapy.

Will Spencer 00:00:38

I had been part of the mythopoetic men's movement and sat in weekly men's groups.

Will Spencer 00:00:42

I personally watched dozens or even hundreds of men have their lives changed by discovering their inner capacity and depth, plus their ability to connect with each other.

Will Spencer 00:00:52

I wanted to facilitate that for more men.

Will Spencer 00:00:55

As a result of that tour, I made significant changes in my life that led me to set out on my around the world adventure in 2016.

Will Spencer 00:01:03

Thats also why I went to Burning man that fateful year, which is a story youve heard.

Will Spencer 00:01:08

But even when I left on that trip, I still intended to return to America and become a psychotherapist to help men, albeit with a few more tattoos and trophies.

Will Spencer 00:01:18

In fact, my idea was that in my therapist's office on the wall behind me, I display photos of me climbing mountains and sailing oceans.

Will Spencer 00:01:26

Put that together with a pair of tattooed arms, and I felt that I could sit across from the most hardened construction worker or truck driver and say to him, we may be very different men, but we have a lot in common.

Will Spencer 00:01:37

Nonetheless.

Will Spencer 00:01:38

I thought perhaps even an outdoor man could see himself reflected in the life and journey of an indoor kidde.

Will Spencer 00:01:45

But when I returned to the United States in 2020, the world ended.

Will Spencer 00:01:49

Everything shut down, schools included.

Will Spencer 00:01:52

And my experience in many men's group chats and online forums indicated to me that even though I couldn't be a psychotherapist, I could still reach men if I called myself a coach.

Will Spencer 00:02:03

Besides, I've since come to believe that most men don't actually need psychotherapy, not at the deepest level.

Will Spencer 00:02:09

They need basic things that men throughout history have needed, a vision for their lives, noble work, a family to fight for, and sometimes the opportunity to grieve.

Will Spencer 00:02:20

I felt that I could offer that as a coach without needing a degree.

Will Spencer 00:02:23

I dont even think thats wrong either.

Will Spencer 00:02:26

But then a funny thing happened.

Will Spencer 00:02:28

I became a Christian, and the once clear picture became not so clear.

Will Spencer 00:02:32

After all, in the secular world, there are plenty of examples of men who are their own authority.

Will Spencer 00:02:38

But as Christians, thats the one thing we cannot do.

Will Spencer 00:02:41

I cant simply say I am an authority in Christ unto myself.

Will Spencer 00:02:46

That would be bad, including and especially because if we were to do that, we run the risk of providing false doctrine, which is significant.

Will Spencer 00:02:55

We wouldnt be impacting his job or his life fulfillment.

Will Spencer 00:02:59

Instead, literal souls are at stake, eternal destinies.

Will Spencer 00:03:03

Thats one reason why James, chapter three, verse one, says, not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Will Spencer 00:03:15

And so my life plans that id had for almost a decade got interrupted.

Will Spencer 00:03:19

Christ has a tendency to do that.

Will Spencer 00:03:21

Ive heard but for a minute there, it was a major crisis that has gone on quietly behind the scenes this year, thanks to the men who supported me through that, who are too numerous to name.

Will Spencer 00:03:32

That's why you haven't heard me advertise the mentorships recently, because I folded that business up.

Will Spencer 00:03:38

I had to.

Will Spencer 00:03:39

For the good of my clients.

Will Spencer 00:03:41

I set out to help men.

Will Spencer 00:03:42

And if there's even the slightest chance that I could harm them out of my own ignorance, then it's not worth it.

Will Spencer 00:03:49

It's also one of the many reasons why I'm ending the renaissance of men as a brand name.

Will Spencer 00:03:54

I'll have more to say about this in the coming months, but the project is all but completed.

Will Spencer 00:03:58

When the brand finally falls away, which I anticipate it will do in the next two to three months, I will have learned what I needed to, saw what I needed to, accomplished what I needed to.

Will Spencer 00:04:09

The vehicle is no longer necessary for me to get where I'm going.

Will Spencer 00:04:13

In fact, in some ways, the wheels fell off of it a couple months ago, and I've been proceeding on foot.

Will Spencer 00:04:19

Perhaps you can feel it, but this has left me with a problem, which I can hear you thinking.

Will Spencer 00:04:24

But will, there's still so much work left to do with men.

Will Spencer 00:04:27

The job isn't done, not by a long shot.

Will Spencer 00:04:30

Yes, more men have stood up to try and be better men, and for that I'm grateful.

Will Spencer 00:04:34

But many of those men have begun to model themselves in the form of Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson.

Will Spencer 00:04:40

Is that really an improvement from the vision of family, fatherhood, and virtue that I tried to promote with the renaissance of men?

Will Spencer 00:04:47

No, it's not.

Will Spencer 00:04:48

Something is better than nothing, for sure, but it falls far short of the ideal.

Will Spencer 00:04:53

So the question for me has been, to whom can I entrust the needs of men?

Will Spencer 00:04:58

Yes, of course, there's Christ.

Will Spencer 00:05:00

I get that.

Will Spencer 00:05:00

But the christian faith was never meant to be me alone with my Bible attitudes like that lead directly to the worst slanders of the protestant faith.

Will Spencer 00:05:09

And if you as a man think being alone with your Bible is enough to grow as a man, you're at great risk of being very wrong and its entirely likely that you will be, especially if all you read is the red letters and skip the Old Testament which is very common.

Will Spencer 00:05:25

So where can I send christian men to become better christian men when many fathers have failed them and pastors arent far behind in their cowardice to confront real issues of masculinity?

Will Spencer 00:05:36

Well, I would want to send them to men who are further down the path than I am.

Will Spencer 00:05:40

Men who are husbands, fathers and established business owners.

Will Spencer 00:05:44

Men with a few failures under their belt that taught them grit and resourcefulness.

Will Spencer 00:05:49

Men who are educated in the faith, articulate, passionate, courageous, and even fearless in their promotion of the manly vision of the christian faith and the blessings that it represents to women.

Will Spencer 00:05:59

Remember, I'm giving up a life vision I've had for over a decade.

Will Spencer 00:06:04

There were moments in my life that I had nothing else than this vision, the promise of the man that I could be for my brothers.

Will Spencer 00:06:10

I can give it to God, sure, but I'd like to entrust it to godly men as well.

Will Spencer 00:06:16

And praise God.

Will Spencer 00:06:17

Just in time.

Will Spencer 00:06:18

He answered my prayers again.

Will Spencer 00:06:20

Which brings me to my guest this week.

Will Spencer 00:06:22

His name is Jared Sparks and he's a husband, father, and the host of the Shepherd's Crook podcast, which ministers to pastors.

Will Spencer 00:06:29

All of which I knew about and are no small feat in themselves.

Will Spencer 00:06:33

But it turns out Jared is much more than that.

Will Spencer 00:06:35

He also has the best and most concise vision for biblical masculinity that I've ever heard, and you'll hear about it in this show.

Will Spencer 00:06:43

He runs retreats, which I've heard nothing but good things about from close friends and brothers.

Will Spencer 00:06:48

And he's beginning a rite of passage for his sons, who he also hosts a podcast with called Sons and Slaves.

Will Spencer 00:06:54

Plus, for the ladies I know are listening, Jared's wife Jordan hosts a popular podcast called fruitful and fearless, covering topics of biblical femininity.

Will Spencer 00:07:03

Putting all these pieces together, I hope you can see that it would be a relief to my heart to have spoken to Jared on this show, because his work means I can say to men, go talk to that guy.

Will Spencer 00:07:13

Listen to what he has to say.

Will Spencer 00:07:15

Follow his model, sit under his preaching.

Will Spencer 00:07:18

Let him point you the way to Christ and God's design for men, not just with his personal experience and wisdom, but with his biblical fidelity as a pastor as well.

Will Spencer 00:07:27

Now, naturally, Jared is not alone in this.

Will Spencer 00:07:29

Now there are many faithful models, from Michael Foster to Nate Spearing to Matt Reynolds and Brandon Lansdowne, Eric Kahn, Brian Sauve and the Ogden crew, Doug Wilson and the Moscow crew, et cetera.

Will Spencer 00:07:40

So it's not all on our good friend Mister Sparks, nor would either of us want it to be.

Will Spencer 00:07:45

However, as I prepare to step back from the only post on the only wall I've ever wanted in favor of a better post that only I can man on a wall that I wouldn't have dreamed of a decade ago, I'm grateful to know that there are far more talented and capable soldiers there to take my place, and Jared is about to show you what that means.

Will Spencer 00:08:04

In our conversation, Jared and I discussed the reality of pastors moral failings, the intention of the christian life, how petition comes before submission, trusting the Lord with your talents, gravitas, and knowing who you are.

Will Spencer 00:08:18

Worship, work, protect, provide lead and love, and finally, calling women out of fear and anxiety.

Will Spencer 00:08:25

If you enjoy the renaissance of men podcast, thank you.

Will Spencer 00:08:29

Please give us a five star rating on Spotify and a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

Will Spencer 00:08:34

If this is your first time here, welcome.

Will Spencer 00:08:36

I release new episodes about the christian counterculture, masculine virtue, and the family every week.

Will Spencer 00:08:42

Just a reminder that many things about this podcast will be changing very soon.

Will Spencer 00:08:46

As you've heard me say, this podcast will soon become the Will Spencer podcast.

Will Spencer 00:08:50

New brand, new topics, new guests, same format you love.

Will Spencer 00:08:54

And I hope you won't remind these regular reminders to make sure we all come along together.

Will Spencer 00:08:58

Also, just a quick moment to remind you of the new podcast sub stack that's becoming our community home.

Will Spencer 00:09:03

Naturally, I'll be posting free content on the site, but the biggest benefits will go to paid subscribers who'll get a number of perks, including early access to ad, free interviews, previews of my new book, and lifetime access to my christian men's discord server.

Will Spencer 00:09:16

You can visit Willspence Pod dot substack.com and be a part of it now.

Will Spencer 00:09:21

And please welcome this week's guest from the Shepherd's Crook and Sons and Slaves podcast, Jared Sparks.

Jared Sparks 00:09:30

Jared, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Guest 00:09:32

Hey, I'm glad to be here.

Guest 00:09:33

It's an honor.

Jared Sparks 00:09:35

So I've been a big fan of the work that you're doing with Shepherd's crook.

Jared Sparks 00:09:39

I know that you do a lot of ministry work to pastors, and this has been something that I've been kind of exploring lately because we're in some very strange times for the christian faith.

Jared Sparks 00:09:49

And I actually believe that it's going to get stranger.

Jared Sparks 00:09:51

And so there are many men that I know, of course, who are working with everyday believers or converts such as myself.

Jared Sparks 00:09:57

But working with pastors seems like such a unique ministry, and calling that's, I mean, it couldn't be more important right now.

Guest 00:10:03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Guest 00:10:05

When I first got into ministry, I really needed some mentors, and I sought out some mentors because I remember sitting in my office and thinking, what now?

Guest 00:10:12

What am I supposed to be doing?

Guest 00:10:14

I knew I was needing to be prepared to preach on Sunday morning.

Guest 00:10:17

I knew I was supposed to meet with people here and there and disciple some people, but I didn't really have a clear direction of what to do.

Guest 00:10:23

I was fresh out of college.

Guest 00:10:24

And then through the years in ministry, I started to kind of find my bearings and get some answers to just some, some of the questions about ministry.

Guest 00:10:32

But then I kind of looked up and realized that there's a lot of pastors that just aren't well, they are doing the work of ministry.

Guest 00:10:37

And I've talked to so many pastors who said they thought their ministry was, was firefighting, just putting out fires here and there.

Guest 00:10:43

What I realized was that so many pastors were just unwell.

Guest 00:10:47

And so what I've wanted to do is just come alongside of them and say, hey, there's a healthy way to live.

Guest 00:10:51

You've to be a good and godly pastor.

Guest 00:10:54

You have to be a good and godly man in the household first, and then everything flows out from that.

Guest 00:10:59

And so, really, well, what I've tried to do is just work with pastors and help them be godly men, because most pastoral failures just break down in the simple things like spiritual disciplines, not being alone with women, basic things in life that just have to do with just healthy, godly manhood.

Guest 00:11:16

And I saw pastor after pastor after pastor fail.

Guest 00:11:20

And so naturally I just kind of wanted to help some guys out, and it's kind of developed from there, but that's kind of how I got into this work.

Jared Sparks 00:11:28

So this is all very revealing to hear it said so specifically because these things seem kind of obvious to me, but it seems strange that pastors wouldn't know some of these things like your pastors.

Jared Sparks 00:11:43

I know that shepherds need a shepherd, but I never quite thought it would be like that.

Guest 00:11:48

Yeah, right.

Guest 00:11:49

Well, it's interesting.

Guest 00:11:49

There's a really good book that was written in 1991.

Guest 00:11:52

It was kind of the front end of the nineties men's ministry.

Guest 00:11:55

It was called, let's see by Steve Farrar.

Guest 00:11:58

And it was called Point man.

Guest 00:11:59

Steve Farrar was a really good, kind of the best of the best of the nineties ministries, guys, the way I kind of bookend, that men's movement was 91 to 2001.

Guest 00:12:08

So Steve Farrar, in 91, 2001, John Eldridge.

Guest 00:12:12

There was kind of a big run with promise keepers and all of that.

Guest 00:12:14

But one of the books that Steve Farrar, who was the best of the best of those guys, wrote was a book called finishing well or finishing strong, something like that.

Guest 00:12:22

But it was interesting because what he did was he wrote the book based on the study of a DT's seminary professor named Howard Hendricks.

Guest 00:12:30

And so what he did, Howard Hendricks had traced down like 300 and something guys that were pastors that had a moral failure over the last decade.

Guest 00:12:39

And so what he did was, I mean, it was a huge case study of all these guys.

Guest 00:12:42

And he wanted to see, like, what are these common denominators?

Guest 00:12:44

And, brother, it was astonishing.

Guest 00:12:46

There were four big common denominators.

Guest 00:12:48

Number one was a neglect of spiritual disciplines.

Guest 00:12:51

So this is like all these guys, there's like 380, something of them.

Guest 00:12:54

Number one, neglect of spiritual disciplines.

Guest 00:12:57

Number two was spending time with women that were not their wives.

Guest 00:13:01

Number three was no accountability.

Guest 00:13:04

So it was really popular to say pastors can't have friends kind of thing.

Guest 00:13:07

So you don't have real friendship, you don't really have accountability.

Guest 00:13:10

And then number four, it escapes me now, I can't remember number four, but it was like four basic things.

Guest 00:13:16

And what he did was trace every single one of these cases and said, these are the four common denominators.

Guest 00:13:20

And it seems so simple.

Guest 00:13:22

And then in the lives of guys that I knew, it's like, man, these are the things they're struggling with, too.

Guest 00:13:26

It's like, man, just, they're not happy, they're overweight, they don't have real friends.

Guest 00:13:31

They don't have any hobbies at all.

Guest 00:13:32

Their household's a wreck, and they're not finishing well.

Guest 00:13:36

And that's what that whole book was about.

Guest 00:13:37

And so, you know, I first started working with just pastors, and it's kind of developed into just working with men in general and then trying to equip the church at large as well.

Guest 00:13:47

But it's the same patterns that keep getting repeated over and over again.

Guest 00:13:51

We just had these high profile Tony Evans had a moral failure, sin failure down in Texas.

Guest 00:13:57

And then a guy that was on Driscoll's council named Robert Morris, I think another Texas pastor was fooling around with, like, you know, abusing some, sadly, little girl for years.

Guest 00:14:08

And it's just this common theme of men that don't know how to be men, and yet they're shepherding churches.

Guest 00:14:15

And it's not rocket science.

Guest 00:14:17

It's just, hey, dude, be a healthy mandeh.

Guest 00:14:19

And then everything else flows from that.

Guest 00:14:21

And that's the problem with a lot of the pastorate today, is they don't know how to be healthy men.

Jared Sparks 00:14:28

Is it?

Jared Sparks 00:14:29

It seems to me that this stuff should be taught in seminary or Bible college, but I know that it isn't.

Jared Sparks 00:14:34

I know, I know that they preach many, like, head centric disciplines, but if you look at the state of the american pastor, you can actually see, you know, the 300 pound pastor on stage.

Jared Sparks 00:14:43

It's like, that's a moral failing, right?

Jared Sparks 00:14:46

That's a moral failing that you're walking around carrying on your body.

Jared Sparks 00:14:49

And whether or not our society is set up to confront you about that, there is a sin issue that we can all see, and it's not addressed by anyone along the way.

Jared Sparks 00:14:59

I think that's really, it's surprising in one way, but also, I suppose, not surprising in another way.

Guest 00:15:03

Yeah, well, I mean, that would be like a visible demonstration of a lack of discipline in a particular area that's visible for everybody to see.

Guest 00:15:10

When it comes to, when it comes to food, the behind the scene things, when it comes to ministry, pastors have to govern themselves.

Guest 00:15:16

They have to have self control.

Guest 00:15:17

I mean, they're, they're largely in control of their schedule because most pastors are pastoring churches of 70 to 80 people, many of them pastoring churches smaller than that.

Guest 00:15:27

And so they're governing their own time.

Guest 00:15:29

And Eugene Peterson, who was liberal pastor, but had a lot of really good things to say about pastoral ministry, I really, look, he's like my guilty pleasure pastor that I writer, that I like to read and learn from.

Guest 00:15:41

It's kind of like enjoying saved by the bell or something.

Guest 00:15:43

But Eugene Peterson had a book called working the Angles, and what he talked about in that is that there's all these things behind the scenes when it comes to the pastor's devotional life.

Guest 00:15:52

When it comes, you can, you can upfront look like you're doing really well in ministry, but then behind the scenes that require self discipline, you're a train wreck.

Guest 00:16:00

So you can be publicly successful, but privately a failure.

Guest 00:16:04

And that can be hidden by so many pastors because they have their front and center ministry is on display every single week or Wednesday night or whatever it may be.

Guest 00:16:12

But then through the week.

Guest 00:16:14

Their life is not monitored largely by even a deacon, board or anybody else.

Guest 00:16:17

So it requires self discipline, and a lot of pastors just fail at that.

Guest 00:16:21

And so I think there are classes, certainly on spiritual disciplines that I took when I was in college and did undergraduate graduate work.

Guest 00:16:28

My program was youth ministry.

Guest 00:16:30

There were classes that emphasized spiritual disciplines, but it was almost a given where what you really needed is specialized training in the problems of youth today.

Guest 00:16:39

And in reality, what we needed was more, you know, robust development on the personal side of what it means to be a godly man.

Guest 00:16:46

And I think Eric, you know, a mutual friend of ours, he did a really good show a few years ago talking about the softening of the american pastor.

Guest 00:16:52

And I've listened to that episode several times, and every time I do, it's like a hearty amen, because there's so much about pastoral training today.

Guest 00:17:00

That is exactly what you're saying.

Guest 00:17:02

It's head.

Guest 00:17:03

It's a man who's knowledgeable in the visible world and things that require him to be at a funeral or do counseling, accession with couples that are struggling in their home, but the rest of their life, that's that private world.

Guest 00:17:16

They don't have a private world that's ordered according to God's word, and they can easily hide because their public ministry is on display.

Guest 00:17:24

And they do those things well.

Guest 00:17:25

And so there is this massive disconnect between public and private life, I think is so common, and sadly, it is common in pastoral ministry.

Jared Sparks 00:17:34

I'm glad you mentioned the 1990s men's movement, because that was the world that I came from, although on the secular side.

Jared Sparks 00:17:42

So John Eldridge sort of embodied some of the myth of poetic men's stuff, but he adapted it for a christian audience.

Jared Sparks 00:17:49

So I came from the secular side.

Jared Sparks 00:17:51

One of the things that I remember most about participating in that world is that on Fridays, when everyone would show up for the retreats, you would have the Mendez drive up in Mercedes with expensive watches.

Jared Sparks 00:18:02

It's clear that they had all the success markers.

Jared Sparks 00:18:05

And ultimately, during the process of these retreats, their belongings would be stripped from them.

Jared Sparks 00:18:10

They get them back, obviously, and you would just have to walk into this experience as the man that you are and nothing that you have going on outside in your outside life matters.

Jared Sparks 00:18:21

Who are you in your heart?

Jared Sparks 00:18:22

And getting to see men who had all this visible signs of success from their clothes to the car, et cetera, to see the mess that they were, in many cases, behind the scenes, that was very powerful for me to see.

Jared Sparks 00:18:35

And it sounds like that's very prevalent.

Jared Sparks 00:18:37

It makes sense that that would be part of the, I guess, the christian version of that movement as well.

Jared Sparks 00:18:42

I think with Steve Ferrar, I think you said it seems like that's very prevalent, probably.

Guest 00:18:47

Yeah, absolutely.

Guest 00:18:48

And I think that's represented in really a lot of fields in life when guys are trained to do whatever they're doing.

Guest 00:18:55

You know, it's long been a criticism from pastors and churches like, you know, don't live a compartmentalized life.

Guest 00:19:02

Be the same man you are everywhere.

Guest 00:19:03

And there's a degree of truth in that.

Guest 00:19:06

You want to be consistent with the way you live your life and the way you conduct your affairs in the world.

Guest 00:19:10

And from just basic questions of ethics, you want to be the same man everywhere you go.

Guest 00:19:15

But also there is a level of compartmentalization that is required to be a man when it comes to being out there in the work world, in the workforce, and then being at home.

Guest 00:19:26

You're the same man, but you're doing different things.

Guest 00:19:28

And I think with the nineties men's ministry, it was the questions of who you are and what a man does that weren't paired together.

Guest 00:19:34

So who is a man?

Guest 00:19:35

And guys will seek questions about, okay, what does it mean?

Guest 00:19:38

Who am I?

Guest 00:19:38

What's my identity?

Guest 00:19:39

That kind of thing.

Guest 00:19:40

But then what am I supposed to do?

Guest 00:19:42

And in the same way that there's ditches always, it seems like, and I don't think we're doomed to walk in one ditch or the other for the rest of our life.

Guest 00:19:48

I think we actually can walk the middle way in a lot of areas of life, but it requires both.

Guest 00:19:53

And I think those guys were malnourished in understanding who a man is and what a man does.

Guest 00:19:59

So it was evidenced by getting some right diagnoses of problems within the church or within manhood in general, but then having feminine answers for masculine problems, not really having a good idea of then, okay, what?

Guest 00:20:11

Now, here's the problem, but what do we do?

Guest 00:20:13

And I think the same thing that you experienced, you know, I listened to the recent episode that you did with referencing Eric here, but Eldridge was basically the Christian Robert Bly.

Guest 00:20:22

I mean, he applied those principles, and it was psychologizing everything.

Guest 00:20:27

And so I think a lot of the questions that were raised to the surface were legitimate questions in that era.

Guest 00:20:32

And then the answers given were less than sufficient, less than biblical, but were certainly pragmatic, but were less than helpful.

Guest 00:20:39

And so I think from that point forward, theres just problems that rear their ugly head when it comes to manhood, and that is demonstrated clearly in pastoral ministry.

Guest 00:20:48

And, I mean, so, like, the criteria that I've put for myself will to be a successful pastor, say, if I get to formal retirement age, and I can say just basically four or five things are true about me, then I would consider this a success.

Guest 00:21:01

And I don't know.

Guest 00:21:02

I know one pastor at this point that meets this criteria.

Guest 00:21:05

It's an old mentor of mine.

Guest 00:21:06

So, number one, if I can get to formal retirement age, and I love Jesus and I know I'm loved by him, okay, that's a huge win.

Guest 00:21:14

So I've not, like, apostatized or ran from, from the Lord or anything like that, so praise God.

Guest 00:21:20

I know, right?

Guest 00:21:21

Like, if I can get the formal retirement age and.

Guest 00:21:24

Okay, secondly, does my wife still like me?

Guest 00:21:27

I'm not talking about just we stuck it out for, you know, 50 years or 40 years through ministry, but does she still enjoy being around me and do we like each other?

Guest 00:21:35

That.

Guest 00:21:35

That's it.

Guest 00:21:36

That's a critical piece.

Guest 00:21:37

Yeah, we love each other.

Guest 00:21:38

Yes, we're committed to one another, but do we actually like being in the same room together?

Guest 00:21:41

Number three, do my kids love the Lord and respect me?

Guest 00:21:44

And I can't determine whether or not they're going to be a Christian or not, but I want them to certainly honor the Lord, walk with him humbly before God and others, and respect me.

Guest 00:21:54

If I get to formal retirement age and I've got the respect of a congregation but my children don't respect me, then that's not a win.

Guest 00:22:00

And then fourth, if I haven't had any hidden moral failures, a man can recover and still finish well if he's been open and repentant about his sins and failures.

Guest 00:22:10

But if he hides them, you cannot finish well.

Guest 00:22:13

And if you cover your sin and cover your tracks, it's impossible.

Guest 00:22:16

And God knows.

Guest 00:22:17

And in time, what's whispered in the dark will be made public.

Guest 00:22:21

And so if there's no hidden moral failures.

Guest 00:22:23

And then the fifth piece is, am I making disciples still?

Guest 00:22:27

Do I still have a passion about being discipled by somebody?

Guest 00:22:30

Am I a man that's still a learner at 65, formal retirement age, am I a man that's still a learner?

Guest 00:22:36

And then am I committed to discipling others still?

Guest 00:22:39

So am I still pouring my life into my children, my grandchildren and the broader church?

Guest 00:22:44

And so those are simple low bars, you know, for this is success.

Guest 00:22:48

It has nothing to do with numbers.

Guest 00:22:49

It has nothing to do.

Guest 00:22:50

It's just these basic things that I want to be true of me.

Guest 00:22:53

And if I can get to that age and look back and say these things are true, then it's like, man, this is a success.

Guest 00:22:58

And here's the deal.

Guest 00:22:59

I know one pastor like that.

Guest 00:23:00

That's it.

Guest 00:23:01

And I've worked with a lot of men, and they cannot say those things.

Guest 00:23:04

And that's what I want to see happen and replicated in the lives of men where there's an army of guys my age that can get to that formal age and say those things are true about them.

Jared Sparks 00:23:15

You know, I hear you say those, and it's one thing to think that those should apply to.

Jared Sparks 00:23:22

Just realistically, they should apply to every man, right?

Jared Sparks 00:23:25

That these are not.

Jared Sparks 00:23:26

I mean, these are.

Jared Sparks 00:23:27

These are things that you want to be, that every man should want to be able to say, and.

Jared Sparks 00:23:31

But that this is the bar now for pastors is a real sign of something.

Jared Sparks 00:23:37

Like you would think that every man in America would say, like, yeah, you know, I want to love the Lord, not have any secret failings that have come to light.

Jared Sparks 00:23:44

My kids are.

Jared Sparks 00:23:45

My kids are faithful, love my kids, love my wife.

Jared Sparks 00:23:47

Like, that used to be, I think, where most men wanted to finish, but now it's an aspirational goal, like, and it's an aspirational goal for the men that are leading other.

Jared Sparks 00:23:57

Mendez.

Guest 00:23:59

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jared Sparks 00:24:02

Yeah, yeah.

Guest 00:24:03

Well, I mean, so somebody I used to look up to, and you.

Guest 00:24:05

You may have heard this name or, you know, maybe not, but his name was Darren patrick, and Darren was.

Guest 00:24:10

He is from my hometown, and he was a very early member of acts 29.

Guest 00:24:15

He was the.

Guest 00:24:16

He was the vice president of acts 29, friends with driscoll, friends with Chandler, and we all looked up to him.

Guest 00:24:23

He was revered in our hometown, and he had this gravitas that I cannot explain.

Guest 00:24:27

It's unlike anybody I've ever met.

Guest 00:24:29

I mean, it is.

Guest 00:24:30

You know, when you read Cr Wiley's book man of the house, and you hear this concept of the gravity of a man or gravitas, and this is exactly what Darren had.

Guest 00:24:40

Every room he walked into, it doesn't matter what level of people are in that room.

Guest 00:24:45

They looked to him, and they wanted to be around him.

Guest 00:24:48

They wanted to be friends with Darren.

Guest 00:24:50

He ended up being the chaplain of the St.

Guest 00:24:52

Louis Cardinals.

Guest 00:24:53

And all these men that were just.

Guest 00:24:55

Just powerful, just leader men, incredible baseball players, incredible talent.

Guest 00:24:59

They wanted to be around this guy.

Guest 00:25:01

Well, Darren ended up having a couple inappropriate relationships with women, and then he ended up committing suicide.

Guest 00:25:11

He killed himself.

Guest 00:25:12

And it was about four years ago now.

Guest 00:25:15

I remember from a buddy of mine that was an elder at his church, and he messaged me and he's like, dude, I got to call you.

Guest 00:25:21

And it was such a blow.

Guest 00:25:23

I mean, now I drive around town and there's a d.

Guest 00:25:27

Patrick, a car dealership, and you see these, these decals on cars.

Guest 00:25:32

And every time I see that, I still have his number in my phone because it's like, it's a memory.

Guest 00:25:35

And he was a guy that everybody looked up to and he was a guy that men wanted to be like.

Guest 00:25:41

And yet this is what, this is what happens.

Guest 00:25:45

So there is a times when you see all these moral failings.

Guest 00:25:48

It's like, is it inevitable that I have to live the life that I end up running really hard and I've got to be this visionary leader that everybody says I'm supposed to be as a pastor?

Guest 00:25:56

And I got to have all these plans and goals for the church for the next five years and ten years?

Guest 00:26:00

And is it inevitable that I burn out and maybe I don't kill myself, but is it inevitable that I end up being miserable and destroying people by being domineering or something?

Guest 00:26:09

And I think a lot of guys kind of get black filled into that in ministry.

Guest 00:26:12

To think it's almost inevitable.

Guest 00:26:14

I'm going to run really, really hard and then I'm going to burn out.

Guest 00:26:16

And it doesn't have to be that way.

Guest 00:26:17

You don't have to run like a chicken with your head cut off or like your hair's on fire.

Guest 00:26:21

You can actually live a healthy pace that is filled with ambition.

Guest 00:26:25

But you can enjoy your life and you can enjoy pastoring and you can enjoy your family.

Guest 00:26:30

There is a way to live.

Guest 00:26:31

And I understand guys, you know, struggle with certain things in life that make it more difficult for them than maybe it is for me.

Guest 00:26:37

But, man, I'm having a lot of fun.

Guest 00:26:41

I want people to have fun and enjoy their life.

Guest 00:26:43

And you really can.

Guest 00:26:45

And that's the life.

Guest 00:26:46

You know, the christian life is intended to be.

Guest 00:26:50

The modus operandi of the Christian is one of joy.

Guest 00:26:52

And you will have seasons of sorrow, but it's not a life of sorrow with seasons of joy.

Guest 00:26:58

The intent of our life is to be joyful.

Guest 00:27:01

And so I think guys need to get encouraged.

Guest 00:27:05

That's why, honestly, my ministry has kind of shifted into almost like a pastor courage ministry.

Guest 00:27:09

It's like, hey, bro, get your head up.

Guest 00:27:10

You don't have to be.

Guest 00:27:11

Don't whine and complain.

Guest 00:27:12

You've got it pretty good.

Guest 00:27:13

Everybody else has got it difficult in your church too.

Guest 00:27:15

Just enjoy your life.

Guest 00:27:16

And, you know, I think people generally have responded pretty well to that.

Jared Sparks 00:27:21

So where did I think I know the answer?

Jared Sparks 00:27:23

This is very interesting to me because when I spoke about masculinity more, this was the flip side of a lot of the men that I would talk to.

Jared Sparks 00:27:33

So there's a, the ditch on one side of the road is the hyper motivated pastor who drives, rides hard and burns himself out and then drives into that side of the ditch, which can be you, you know, burnout, inappropriate relationships, addictions, et cetera, all the things that high performing men are tempted to.

Jared Sparks 00:27:50

But then the ditch on the other side of the road is inaction, is passivity.

Jared Sparks 00:27:56

And so a lot of the men that I would work with, it's about getting them up out of that ditch onto the road and moving and moving forward at a sustainable pace.

Jared Sparks 00:28:05

It's interesting and less so dealing with men that have just pushed themselves into 6th gear and blown out the engine.

Jared Sparks 00:28:13

But I mean, I think both of these are, I look at these as two different symptoms of masculinity today, meaning like the past 70 or so years that men on both sides don't really know how to be a man.

Jared Sparks 00:28:26

Like, you have to be able to, you have to be able to motivate yourself out of the ditch, but you also have to not drive yourself into the ditch on the other side of the road.

Jared Sparks 00:28:33

You have to understand, like, okay, I'm getting too close to the sun and.

Jared Sparks 00:28:37

But I think we see that, like, we almost celebrate that as a culture now, like the classic burnout.

Jared Sparks 00:28:43

But there's a moral component to the christian side that gives it a gravity that the secular world doesn't quite have.

Guest 00:28:50

Yeah, man, that's helpful in thinking through that because you're right on one side.

Guest 00:28:54

It's almost like godliness is lacking ambition.

Guest 00:28:56

So it is a surrender or submission to the will of God.

Guest 00:29:00

And, you know, I think that a lot of the, if, you know, some trends that have happened theologically and especially with the young, restless and reformed movement and the opposite of prosperity gospel would have been the poverty gospel and almost a fear of ambition because you have your desires and passions and I need to lay all these down.

Guest 00:29:19

And it almost became a really good thing for pastors just to say, hey, listen, it's almost like in prayer, we don't lay our requests out to the Lord in accordance with his commands because we want to surrender to his will.

Guest 00:29:32

And yet even in Jesus, in his prayer, Jesus, it was request before submission.

Guest 00:29:38

It was petition before submission.

Guest 00:29:40

It was let this cup pass for me and not my will, but your will be done.

Guest 00:29:43

And if we immediately go to submission, we're actually not praying according to the words of Christ or the commands of God.

Guest 00:29:50

We're commanded to pray for the healing of the sick before we submit to the will of our heavenly Father.

Guest 00:29:55

So it's petition before submission and a lot of pastoral life or just life and as men in general, it's almost like there's that one ditch of just submitting to the will of God.

Guest 00:30:04

I'm not going to have godly ambition because that could be not rightly ordered by God and his word.

Guest 00:30:09

So I'm on one side.

Guest 00:30:11

The other side is like, I've really learned a lot from Cameron Haynes and David Goggins and a lot of these hustle guys that are, I really, I get motivated by that kind of thing and I think what keeps me from going into that ditch is this man.

Guest 00:30:26

I want to be catechized by the vision that Jesus gives me.

Guest 00:30:29

And, you know, when you are familiar with the ways of the world, there's always going to be a twisted version of reality.

Guest 00:30:37

When you're familiar with God's word, you're able to rightly assess what's wrong with the world in ditch one and ditch two.

Guest 00:30:45

So, for instance, in pastoral ministry, there's been an idea for a couple decades, you know, maybe 30 years now, that the pastor is the visionary leader.

Guest 00:30:54

That's just a repackaged idea of the pastor is a prophet, the pastor is Moses, and everybody gets behind his vision.

Guest 00:31:03

So you get your unique vision given by the Holy Spirit to you for your particular congregation, and then you gather a group of people around you who will implement this vision and recognize that yes, this is indeed the vision of God.

Guest 00:31:16

And the problem with that is massive, but it really feeds the ego of pastors.

Guest 00:31:21

And for men, if they have this idea that I get to set the vision of my family and it's going to be a unique vision, certainly God's going to use certain men and certain pastors in unique ways.

Guest 00:31:31

But here's the deal.

Guest 00:31:33

Jesus is our visionary.

Guest 00:31:35

He has given us our vision, he's given us our mission.

Guest 00:31:38

Every church has the exact same vision and mission.

Guest 00:31:41

And the pastor who thinks it's his job to get everybody on his bus is missing the point that he's on Jesus's bus.

Guest 00:31:48

And every church has this exact same mission.

Guest 00:31:50

And I think what can lead to healthy ambition and walking in the middle of the road is recognizing that Jesus is the pastor of the church, I am vigorously following after him.

Guest 00:32:01

And like Paul, I'm saying, follow me as I follow Christ.

Guest 00:32:05

I have proper ambition here.

Guest 00:32:07

The Holy Spirit has empowered me to use the power that God has given me for good and not for harm, not for ill.

Guest 00:32:13

And I want you to jump in on that power and run with me towards Christ.

Guest 00:32:17

And it's the same thing with manhood when it comes to a household.

Guest 00:32:20

I'm not trying to give to my wife and children my vision for our household.

Guest 00:32:24

I have a vision given to me by God to raise my children in the discipline and the instruction of the Lord, to obey and honor him in all things, to lead my wife, to lead my family.

Guest 00:32:33

And so it's a lot easier to say, hey, follow the vision God has given us in this family than it is to say, follow my vision that I'm giving us in this family.

Guest 00:32:42

So I think that problem is pervasive.

Guest 00:32:43

And because men have an ego problem and easily can have an ego problem, the ditch becomes really deep, and we run in it, all the while saying, I'm the leader.

Guest 00:32:53

I've got the vision.

Guest 00:32:54

Follow me.

Guest 00:32:55

And we've missed the point, especially in ministry.

Guest 00:32:58

Jesus has the vision.

Guest 00:32:59

Follow him.

Guest 00:33:00

And so I think that's where we can have that proper ambition, that vigor, that.

Guest 00:33:03

That joy, without, you know, running ourselves ragged.

Jared Sparks 00:33:08

And it has to be.

Jared Sparks 00:33:10

And this is, this is another way.

Jared Sparks 00:33:11

This is how I think of what you just said is, like, it has to be not about you.

Jared Sparks 00:33:15

As soon as.

Jared Sparks 00:33:15

As soon as the vision for your family or for your company or for your church or whatever, it becomes about you.

Jared Sparks 00:33:22

Like, the plot gets lost.

Jared Sparks 00:33:24

Like, it's gotta be something.

Jared Sparks 00:33:26

You have to be pointing beyond yourself somehow, right?

Jared Sparks 00:33:29

Otherwise, if it becomes all about you, that's a pressure that no Mandez can handle.

Jared Sparks 00:33:34

And I think hustle culture, and I think elite theory, great man theory, that's kind of floating around in some of these circles, like, looking at men like Alexander the great or whatever.

Jared Sparks 00:33:42

It's like men fancy.

Jared Sparks 00:33:44

You even watch, like, a James Bond film or these singular mythic hero kind of tales that the men put the weight of the vision all on themselves.

Jared Sparks 00:33:55

And of course, that's great to watch for two and a half hours on a tv screen like dune, but when it actually becomes your life, like, look, you're not Paul Atreides.

Jared Sparks 00:34:04

Like, it has to not be about you because you can't carry that.

Jared Sparks 00:34:08

He's a fictional character.

Jared Sparks 00:34:09

You are not.

Jared Sparks 00:34:10

But I think so many men get very caught up in the success culture and the hustle culture.

Jared Sparks 00:34:16

It's great to listen to Jocko Willink and David Goggins and all those guys, but I don't know that I would call David Goggins a healthy man, right?

Guest 00:34:24

No, definitely not.

Jared Sparks 00:34:26

And people, men mistake if they start mistaking themselves for the image of unhealthy men rather than looking at the healthy mandehead.

Jared Sparks 00:34:31

Jesus.

Jared Sparks 00:34:32

And I guess, yeah, that's the real challenge in many ways.

Guest 00:34:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Guest 00:34:37

Yeah.

Guest 00:34:38

They certainly would not be healthy men.

Guest 00:34:40

You know, David Goggins certainly is not a healthy man.

Guest 00:34:42

And I think that most guys have discipline in some areas of their life.

Guest 00:34:46

They're really disciplined in some areas, but they don't have well ordered discipline in a manner, to use kind of a leftist term here, in a holistic manner.

Guest 00:34:54

There's not, there isn't, you know, kind of a renaissance if you have discipline in all areas or spheres of their life.

Guest 00:35:01

And so they're really disciplined and motivated in one area.

Guest 00:35:04

And that's, that's what the hustle culture dives into is discipline in a particular area.

Guest 00:35:09

But these other areas of their life are malnourished.

Guest 00:35:11

Their families are a wreck.

Guest 00:35:12

They've been married two or three times.

Guest 00:35:14

They don't have proper discipline.

Guest 00:35:16

They all, they always talk about discipline, but it's actually not well ordered discipline.

Guest 00:35:21

And so, you know, I think that's just, I mean, it's critical in all of, all of our lives, for sure.

Guest 00:35:25

But, yeah, I think our desire should not just be to hustle, but it should be to be godly, which is, you know, which is a big difference.

Jared Sparks 00:36:51

So let's talk about well ordered discipline, because we hear the word discipline as this, you know, single factor thing, like, there must be discipline, right?

Jared Sparks 00:37:01

That's the jocko Willink.

Guest 00:37:02

Right.

Jared Sparks 00:37:02

But a well ordered discipline is a much more multifaceted kind of thing.

Jared Sparks 00:37:07

So let's, let's talk about that and sort of make it practical for men and women, I suppose, who are listening.

Guest 00:37:12

Yeah, absolutely.

Guest 00:37:13

Well, I think if you look at your life, you can recognize that your ambition goes somewhere.

Guest 00:37:18

You're giving the best of yourself to something.

Guest 00:37:20

So every person is disciplined in some area, even the lazy man, he's just really disciplined at being lazy.

Guest 00:37:25

So if you look at your life and recognize that you are extremely motivated in some areas, and it doesn't mean that you have to be amazing at everything, but then there's going to be some areas of your life where you recognize, why can't I put my motivation or discipline to that particular area?

Guest 00:37:40

Because a lot of times, the areas that we lack discipline can be hurtful to the people that we love the most.

Guest 00:37:45

You know, the classic example in marriage is that I can have a disciplined body.

Guest 00:37:50

I can control my intake of food, or I can go out and get strong.

Guest 00:37:54

And I've.

Guest 00:37:55

You know, something's clicked in me, and I don't want to be overweight anymore.

Guest 00:37:58

I'm now I want to go out and.

Guest 00:37:59

And be really strong.

Guest 00:38:01

But the yard looks terrible.

Guest 00:38:04

Or inside of your home, your office.

Guest 00:38:06

This perpetual struggle for me is, why is it that I care about the kitchen being cleaned?

Guest 00:38:11

And I will come alongside of my wife, who stays at home, works really hard.

Guest 00:38:16

She works one day a week outside of the home.

Guest 00:38:17

We have four children.

Guest 00:38:19

But the kitchen really, really matters to me to be clean.

Guest 00:38:23

And I'll even join in on that and do everything I can to keep that clean.

Guest 00:38:26

But my office, which is my space downstairs, it's like, why is my desk like, brother, look at this.

Guest 00:38:32

I'm going to take this right now to.

Guest 00:38:34

You can't.

Guest 00:38:34

If you're on the audio, like, okay, there's books right there.

Guest 00:38:37

There's clutter right there.

Guest 00:38:39

So in this particular area, it's.

Guest 00:38:42

It's.

Guest 00:38:42

It's.

Guest 00:38:43

My goodness.

Guest 00:38:44

Why is it that that particular area of discipline is hard for me?

Guest 00:38:48

And I'm habit stacking.

Guest 00:38:49

I'm reading atomic habits by, by James clear and doing all this stuff.

Guest 00:38:53

So when I'm talking about this, this is something.

Guest 00:38:55

I mean, I'm in the same boat, but lacking discipline in areas that matter, ends up hurting people.

Guest 00:39:02

And this is just kind of a silly example, but I think for all of us, we got to ask that question.

Guest 00:39:08

It's not really a win if we're really disciplined in one particular area, but all these other areas, we're really either hurting the people around us or we're just really malnourished.

Guest 00:39:17

And so I think it's really easy to say, where am I crushing it and where am I struggling?

Guest 00:39:22

And then I need to take a little bit, learn from that ambition I have over here in this area, that I'm crushing it and then apply it in these areas that I really need it over here.

Jared Sparks 00:39:29

And I think that there's also a component of recognizing that.

Jared Sparks 00:39:35

So hustle culture is all about focusing your discipline into, like, a very narrow jet.

Jared Sparks 00:39:41

Like.

Jared Sparks 00:39:41

Like a.

Jared Sparks 00:39:42

Like, your discipline is a fire hose.

Jared Sparks 00:39:44

And you put your thumb over the fire hose and you get this.

Jared Sparks 00:39:46

You get this really fine spray.

Jared Sparks 00:39:47

You know what I mean?

Jared Sparks 00:39:48

But if you take your thumb off it just kind of pours out.

Jared Sparks 00:39:51

But the more that you focus the energy in one direction, the less anything else can get.

Jared Sparks 00:39:56

And if you take care of, you know, if we were all really to clean our environments as well as we would, like every single day, we wouldn't have the time and energy to do other things.

Jared Sparks 00:40:04

We only have so much to do.

Jared Sparks 00:40:06

And so I think that that extremely focused discipline, while it can be very good for achieving high levels of, say, material success, it comes at the cost of other things in life.

Jared Sparks 00:40:18

And I think that's a trade off that some men don't know how to make.

Jared Sparks 00:40:20

It's like they're so focused on taking the hill that they don't understand that they don't understand what they're leaving behind, I suppose.

Guest 00:40:27

Well, there's two different ideas of legacy.

Guest 00:40:29

There's the kind of legacy that some men want to want to leave.

Guest 00:40:32

When it comes to the hustle culture, there's a kind of legacy that people want to leave that is, I was excellent at one thing.

Guest 00:40:39

Yeah, okay.

Guest 00:40:39

This would be the lie of the enemy.

Guest 00:40:41

It's like, hey, you be the best you can, and you be the best you can at one thing.

Guest 00:40:44

You devote your entire life to this one thing, and then behind you is the inevitable wake of damage.

Guest 00:40:50

Okay?

Guest 00:40:51

If your legacy is a good thing, you should want to do everything you can to, you know?

Guest 00:40:57

And ecclesiastes is true that, you know, a generation comes, a generation goes, and there is a time where your name is going to be forgotten.

Guest 00:41:04

But what God does through you is you're living in light of your great grandchildren and trying to make decisions in light of the generations that come, whether you have grandchildren or not.

Guest 00:41:11

But you're living thinking about the future.

Guest 00:41:17

You do want to be remembered for being the guy that, I ran a three hour marathon once a month for eight years and devoted my life to that.

Guest 00:41:28

Okay, that's great.

Guest 00:41:30

But your kids and grandkids don't want to be around you at all.

Guest 00:41:34

You may have legacy that reached the magazines, the runner's World magazine.

Guest 00:41:39

Okay.

Guest 00:41:40

You ran the 300 miles desert run that I think started two or three years ago.

Guest 00:41:45

That's amazing.

Guest 00:41:45

You're an incredible endurance athlete.

Guest 00:41:47

Great.

Guest 00:41:48

But then over here, you have a guy that's actually devoted his life living a rightly ordered life according to God's word.

Guest 00:41:56

And there is tremendous legacy, the kind of legacy you see in Jonathan Edwards life down through the generations, or what you see even in modern day with Doug Wilson through his family lineage.

Guest 00:42:07

And what God is doing currently that we're getting to watch what so many of us younger guys are saying.

Guest 00:42:12

God, may that be me.

Guest 00:42:13

We're praying in the mornings and praying before we go to bed.

Guest 00:42:16

God, may we see our children and children's children humbly walk before God and others.

Guest 00:42:21

And so I think there's going to be a legacy that's left and the hustle culture gets and earns some kind of legacy.

Guest 00:42:28

What does it matter if everybody outside of your household praises you, if your family doesn't?

Guest 00:42:36

And I think that's a cost that some guys are saying, yeah, that's fine, I want that.

Guest 00:42:40

I'm okay with that.

Guest 00:42:40

But the christian man is not okay with getting the praise of the world at the expense of his family.

Guest 00:42:46

And so I think that has to be rightly ordered as well.

Jared Sparks 00:42:51

That's a really good point, because this is something that I see.

Jared Sparks 00:42:56

I would call it the christian manosphere.

Jared Sparks 00:42:58

I suppose as I've watched, I came in through the manosphere of the men's dialogue is how I entered into the christian faith.

Jared Sparks 00:43:06

And then I watched many men in my space become christian, and then I watched the dialogue around masculinity kind of Christianize.

Jared Sparks 00:43:12

And there's been so much focus on that.

Jared Sparks 00:43:19

It's not strictly worldly.

Jared Sparks 00:43:21

I think it's okay to have a godly ambition.

Jared Sparks 00:43:24

I think it's okay to have a vision for your family and to want to want to create prosperity.

Jared Sparks 00:43:30

And I think that's what we're meant to do.

Jared Sparks 00:43:31

I'm not a believer in the poverty gospel, and I think every man has innate capacities that he should cultivate to the benefit of what we might neutrally call profit.

Jared Sparks 00:43:41

Like, if you're good at something, you should get to the point where you can charge money for it.

Jared Sparks 00:43:45

I think these are all good and godly things, and there's a way in which that can become so much of a focus that men begin comparing each other and themselves based on their material success as opposed to actually being brothers in Christ.

Jared Sparks 00:44:01

Right.

Jared Sparks 00:44:01

As opposed to like.

Jared Sparks 00:44:02

And I think, and I think one of the things that men struggle with in the christian faith is that they want to be a successful.

Jared Sparks 00:44:12

I'm going to try and talk my way through this.

Jared Sparks 00:44:14

They want to be a successful and well respected and we might say powerful man, a man of status.

Jared Sparks 00:44:19

And I think that's a godly desiree.

Jared Sparks 00:44:21

However, it seems to me that the christian faith says that you work hard and the results belong to the Lord, so you might not get that.

Jared Sparks 00:44:29

And so there's the real temptation that a lot of men experience today, especially on social media, to try and do it in their own strength, which they can do, but that comes at the expense of godliness.

Jared Sparks 00:44:41

And so there's this uneasy tension, like, well, I want to go get that thing God's not giving to me, so I'll go get it on my own.

Jared Sparks 00:44:48

And things get rightly.

Jared Sparks 00:44:50

They get misordered, I think.

Guest 00:44:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Guest 00:44:53

So the Tower of Babel demonstrates that mankind can do some really amazing things.

Guest 00:44:59

And Jesus, I mean, God literally comes down and says nothing that they put their minds to.

Guest 00:45:05

Will they not be able to do?

Guest 00:45:07

So their language was, and the peoples were dispersed, but they were doing something that was, that was powerful.

Guest 00:45:15

And through the strength of their own hands, obviously through God's common grace, not saying that that was disconnected from God and his, his giving them the ability to think through those sorts of, those sorts of things, but people can do amazing things.

Guest 00:45:27

It's just, it's unbelievable what people can do.

Guest 00:45:28

And God's amazing.

Guest 00:45:30

I mean, God's common grace that he's distributed to people and he's distributed that in an uneven way.

Guest 00:45:35

But you're exactly right.

Guest 00:45:36

When it comes to, when it comes to certain men have been given two talents, and that's okay.

Guest 00:45:45

Every man should, whether they get two talents or ten talents or five talents, should run to every single.

Guest 00:45:52

Oh, it looks like we got disconnected.

Guest 00:45:54

Are we together here?

Jared Sparks 00:45:55

I'm still here.

Guest 00:45:56

Okay.

Guest 00:45:57

Every man should run to every little bit of responsibility that God has entrusted to him.

Guest 00:46:03

Run to power, run to authority, because christian men have been uniquely given the gift through the power of the Holy Spirit to handle power and not misuse it.

Guest 00:46:12

So they should run to it.

Guest 00:46:14

But then you're exactly right.

Guest 00:46:15

What God does with that.

Guest 00:46:16

God's going to give some people, God's not egalitarian in anything.

Guest 00:46:20

He's going to give some people more power and some guys more what looks like visible fruit than another guy.

Guest 00:46:27

And we just got to be comfortable enough in the way that God has made us to be okay with that.

Guest 00:46:32

And not just be okay with that, but celebrate when a brother that's doing something very similar to us is succeeding and outpacing because God is blessing it.

Guest 00:46:41

And then look at what God is doing through our life and say, God, thank you for what you're doing in my life and their life.

Guest 00:46:47

Little men struggle when other men succeed.

Guest 00:46:50

Godly men celebrate when other men succeed, and they thank God for it.

Guest 00:46:55

They recognize that it's okay that God has given me two talents.

Guest 00:46:58

And by golly I'm going to do everything I possibly can with those two talents to see those multiplied and see God work through it.

Guest 00:47:05

So there just has to be an ability to trust in God's sovereignty when it comes to our lives that he's not going to use us all in the exact same way.

Guest 00:47:13

And in that hustle culture, it's like if you don't climb to the top, trust the Lord and just you can climb as far as God allows you to and then trust the Lord with all those results.

Guest 00:47:25

It's the same thing with ministry, man.

Guest 00:47:26

You get into past, you know, pastors conferences and the schmoozing that's going on between pastors.

Guest 00:47:32

Just trying to get somebody to ask how many people go to your church or just trying to get people, it's like you're fishing for compliments.

Guest 00:47:40

It's like, please, please, please, I want to tell you what's going on in our church.

Guest 00:47:45

So please, I'll ask a few leading questions so I can hear what's going on and I'll tell you what's going on in our church so I can prove myself to you.

Guest 00:47:52

And I think honestly, there's just freedom in being able to lay that down.

Guest 00:47:56

Going back to just talking about what it means to be a healthy man, to say God's going to, I'm going to be ambitious.

Guest 00:48:01

I'm going to run to power and authority.

Guest 00:48:03

I'm going to run to responsibility and then do the best I can and then trust God with what he's going to do in my life, and that's going to be unique in my life.

Guest 00:48:12

It's not going to be the same as what God does with somebody else.

Jared Sparks 00:48:16

I appreciate you saying that.

Jared Sparks 00:48:21

To hear that, it triggers an emotional response in my heart because I've met a lot of men like that.

Jared Sparks 00:48:28

And the way that there's an acceptance seeking, the way that there's approving themselves seeking, as if, like if I tell you how many men are in my church and what's going on, that you'll like me or something.

Jared Sparks 00:48:41

That's a very natural thing.

Jared Sparks 00:48:42

And yet at the same time, we're not supposed to derive our identity as men from the status that other others give us based on their perception of our accomplishments.

Jared Sparks 00:48:53

Right?

Jared Sparks 00:48:55

You mentioned Cr Wiley and a man's gravity.

Jared Sparks 00:48:58

And Michael Foster has talked about gravitas.

Jared Sparks 00:49:00

Like gravitas from a man comes in knowing who you are, and that doesn't come from the outside world because the outside world can give you things and then it can take them away.

Jared Sparks 00:49:10

I'm reading the book of Job right now.

Jared Sparks 00:49:12

I can just go away.

Jared Sparks 00:49:13

And it's very powerful to read the dialogue that job is having with his friends, you know, quote unquote friends, where he knows who he is.

Jared Sparks 00:49:22

Right.

Jared Sparks 00:49:23

It's not looking pretty good on the outside, but he knows who he is.

Jared Sparks 00:49:26

And the assault that he's coming under from everyone else's perceptions of him and that he's bearing up under that.

Jared Sparks 00:49:33

And to see that get flipped around from pastors like, I've seen it in so many other places, not just in the christian world, it's in the secular world as well.

Jared Sparks 00:49:41

It's like, no, our identity is supposed to come from someplace much deeper than that of.

Jared Sparks 00:49:45

And yet it's still very familiar.

Jared Sparks 00:49:47

It's very common men things.

Guest 00:49:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Guest 00:49:50

And I think every man who knows men in their life, who know who they are and what they're intended for, and they're not trying to impress anybody, and they really don't care what you think.

Guest 00:50:02

And it's not a kind of personality that.

Guest 00:50:05

Well, I don't care what you think, because they actually do care what you think.

Guest 00:50:08

You know, it's not this Persona that's being.

Guest 00:50:10

But men know the guys that are like that are just really secure in who they are in Christ and what God's called them to do, and they're doing the right things.

Guest 00:50:21

And there is that.

Guest 00:50:22

There's that gravitas there towards that.

Guest 00:50:24

And there's just a lot of little men in the world that don't know what God's called them to do that are trying to live large, and they have no idea because they don't have a vision of manhood.

Guest 00:50:34

And we're so confused today on what that is.

Guest 00:50:37

And I know that's what so much of renaissance of man is about, and I've learned so much from.

Guest 00:50:41

From you and and the people that you've had on.

Guest 00:50:44

But, man, it is, uh.

Guest 00:50:46

It is.

Guest 00:50:46

It's pervasive, uh, insecure men who don't really have a grasp on who a man is and what a man does.

Guest 00:50:53

And it's demonstrated in bragging and, you know, their Persona on Instagram or their Persona on Facebook or Twitter or wherever, and everybody can see it.

Guest 00:51:05

But then the man who is secure, everybody can see that as well.

Guest 00:51:09

And other men want to be like that guy.

Jared Sparks 00:51:14

I was talking with.

Jared Sparks 00:51:14

I think it was Michael Foster about how celebrity culture that we live in today with movie stars and rock stars and stuff, began.

Jared Sparks 00:51:24

I think he said, during one of the great awakenings with pastors, that pastors were the first celebrities.

Jared Sparks 00:51:30

And that was like a mind blowing kind of thought.

Jared Sparks 00:51:32

And I think it can be very understandable that a man with a gift for the ministry, the gift for speaking and preaching and leading, can, you know, with a genuine gift, can look at that gift and he can see celebrity culture in America Day that focuses on entrepreneurs and visionary leaders and TEd talk givers and decide that he can shift his gifts to move more in that direction, which is more a worldly direction than preaching the gospel, even if it means that you're not going to have the big superstar stage life by ministering faithfully to a faithful church of 70 or 80 people.

Jared Sparks 00:52:11

That's not a glamorous life, but it's a godly life, and it has its own rewards.

Jared Sparks 00:52:16

And I can see how success culture would now have bled into the ministry.

Jared Sparks 00:52:23

I've heard about this, I've observed it in other ways, but now it makes a whole lot of sense why that's the case.

Jared Sparks 00:52:29

It's just tragically common in terms of the modern, the way things work today.

Guest 00:52:36

Yeah, well, I've been in ministry now.

Guest 00:52:38

I've been a pastor for 16 years and had four different.

Guest 00:52:42

So I was at a church for two and a half years.

Guest 00:52:44

We planted, and then our church merged with another church, and I became a campus pastor at that church.

Guest 00:52:49

Then we, we shifted.

Guest 00:52:51

Two and a half years later, I was associate pastor at kind of a mom and pop church from this mega church to a smaller, just literally pastor and his wife, just a lot smaller church.

Guest 00:53:00

And then now we've been at our church for the last eight years.

Guest 00:53:03

And lord willing, we're going to be there for the long haul.

Guest 00:53:06

And there is this.

Guest 00:53:08

When I first got into ministry, that's what I wanted.

Guest 00:53:10

And I'd never thought about that.

Guest 00:53:11

The first celebrities and that whole culture being tied into because you think, first great awakening, you have George Whitfield, you have John Wesley, you have all these masses of people, you have Edwards.

Guest 00:53:21

And then the second great Awakening, you have people that were not that great, but like Charles Finney and the people that were preaching then in the 1850s.

Guest 00:53:29

So that is an interesting concept.

Guest 00:53:30

But that's what I wanted.

Guest 00:53:32

I mean, I got into ministry.

Guest 00:53:33

I wanted to pastor a large church, and I think that's what every guy my age, we wanted to start a movement, and especially with acts 29.

Guest 00:53:40

I applied to be in acts 29 in 2007 or in 2008, and we started the process of our church joining the network.

Guest 00:53:47

We didn't end up doing that, but that was my goal was to pastor a huge church.

Guest 00:53:51

And if somebody would have told me at 24 that I'd be pastoring a church that was not a huge church, that is a medium sized to a little bit larger than medium sized church, there would have been a little bit of disappointment in me.

Guest 00:54:07

Like, really.

Guest 00:54:08

And the things I said, I believed as a young man in ministry, practically, I didn't believe it because I thought I would have been.

Guest 00:54:14

It would have been like, is this somewhat of a failure?

Guest 00:54:16

And then as I look back, if I would have got what I wanted but didn't what I have now, didn't have what I have now.

Guest 00:54:23

It's just everybody's story is like, man, God has something so much better, really than you have for yourself.

Guest 00:54:29

And it doesn't necessarily come with the accolades you thought you would get.

Guest 00:54:33

So it doesn't come with the, I'm pastoring a church of 2000 people or 3000 people.

Guest 00:54:38

I thought my aptitude was at this level.

Guest 00:54:40

And, you know, as you live life a little bit, you kind of get a healthy self assessment where you kind of get cut down to size a little bit where you realize I may be, you know, I'm not.

Guest 00:54:50

I'm not as.

Guest 00:54:50

I'm not as great as I thought I was ten years ago, you know.

Jared Sparks 00:54:54

And I've never, ever felt that I'm not right.

Guest 00:54:58

I mean, I'm not as good a communicator.

Guest 00:54:59

I'm not as good of a preacher.

Guest 00:55:01

I'm not as good at, you know, filling the blanket, all this stuff.

Guest 00:55:03

And there's just something happens with age.

Guest 00:55:06

I'm in my four, I'm 40 now where there is a, it's not a self loathing, but it's almost, it's like a comforting humility to realize I am what I am by the grace of God, whatever that is.

Guest 00:55:17

And there's a freedom there where it's like, you know, if our church never blows up the way I wanted it to when I was 25 year old man.

Guest 00:55:24

And certainly God can do whatever he wants and would want to honor him in that.

Guest 00:55:29

But there's just freedom in that.

Guest 00:55:30

There's just freedom to say, God, I trust you.

Guest 00:55:33

And that doesn't mean, I know, referencing back to what we were talking about before, that you lack ambition by just saying, God, I trust you.

Guest 00:55:40

Like God, I want to see great things happen.

Guest 00:55:42

I want to see revival.

Guest 00:55:43

I want to see you bless the preaching that comes every week on Sunday mornings or when I do podcast, you know, talks or whatever it may be.

Guest 00:55:50

But, you know, I'm having a pretty good time being a husband and a father and pastoring.

Guest 00:55:56

I got really good friends.

Guest 00:55:57

I get to do fun things.

Guest 00:55:59

Life's pretty stinking awesome.

Guest 00:56:01

And I'm having more fun than I thought I ever could.

Guest 00:56:04

And it's not doing what I thought I was going to be doing.

Jared Sparks 00:56:07

Yeah, I can relate to that.

Jared Sparks 00:56:09

When I started the renaissance of men, I thought it was just going to be a documentary.

Jared Sparks 00:56:13

That was the big project behind the scenes.

Jared Sparks 00:56:16

That was all just to highlight other men who had been doing the work for much longer than me.

Jared Sparks 00:56:20

I showed up, I had some cameras.

Jared Sparks 00:56:21

Let's tell the story of these other men.

Jared Sparks 00:56:23

And I didn't want to be in front of the camera.

Jared Sparks 00:56:25

I just wanted to work one on one with men and help them change their lives in the way that my own life had been changed by some of the wisdom that I had accumulated from my experiences.

Jared Sparks 00:56:35

I never thought I would be the in front of camera guy, and I've had to move away from that one on one kind of work.

Jared Sparks 00:56:43

But it's like trusting that, okay, this isn't what I wanted for myself.

Jared Sparks 00:56:47

It's something that's very edgy for me.

Jared Sparks 00:56:49

Like, I'm not naturally the guy to be on the microphone, believe it or not, in front of the camera, but this is where God has put me.

Jared Sparks 00:56:55

And so, okay, like, praise God for that.

Jared Sparks 00:56:57

And that it has its own responsibilities.

Jared Sparks 00:56:59

And on the other side, a man who's going in the direction of.

Jared Sparks 00:57:03

Who's heading in that direction for the bright lights and all that stuff can actually find satisfaction in something far more humble and modest.

Jared Sparks 00:57:11

And these two are not.

Jared Sparks 00:57:13

They're not in any conflict.

Jared Sparks 00:57:15

Right?

Jared Sparks 00:57:15

It's different men doing different things in different seasons of their lives.

Jared Sparks 00:57:19

And I think that's the really important thing, is to not think that any moment in itself is like an arrival.

Jared Sparks 00:57:24

And I'm going to be here forever because opportunity could knock on your door tomorrow, right.

Jared Sparks 00:57:28

And to trust the way that we'll never actually overcome God's plan for us.

Jared Sparks 00:57:34

We'll walk backwards into it if we have to.

Jared Sparks 00:57:36

Right?

Jared Sparks 00:57:36

It's like, wow, it's actually pretty good to be right here.

Jared Sparks 00:57:40

And who knows what it's setting you up for in the future, right?

Guest 00:57:44

Yeah.

Guest 00:57:45

I mean, it sounds like you're having a pretty good time.

Guest 00:57:47

I mean, God's faithful, and there's a lot of joy in following him.

Guest 00:57:51

But isn't it neat?

Guest 00:57:51

Because you kind of look back and you're like, how did I get here?

Guest 00:57:54

And this really wasn't some grand plan and design here.

Guest 00:57:57

It's like, man, God piece these things together and I just get caught up in what he's doing.

Guest 00:58:03

You know, it's like I get, I get dragged along and, you know, it's like God just brings you and puts you where he wants you.

Guest 00:58:10

He really does.

Guest 00:58:11

And, you know, he is our heavenly father.

Guest 00:58:14

We have a heavenly father.

Guest 00:58:16

He takes care of us and he leads us and guides us in the, he knows how to give good gifts to his children.

Guest 00:58:22

I mean, I'm preaching through Luke right now, just talking about this.

Guest 00:58:25

And he even clothes like the lily in the field and I was just preaching this in Luke twelve.

Guest 00:58:29

It's like we have, oh, you have little faith.

Guest 00:58:31

He knows how to clothe even the one of little faith with beauty far beyond the lily in the field.

Guest 00:58:38

And he takes care of us.

Guest 00:58:40

And it's not because we've got this massive faith or anything like that.

Guest 00:58:44

It's just, man, we get caught up in what he's doing in our lives and it's just a lot of fun.

Guest 00:58:47

If you not saying that there's obviously, man, there's some christians and christian men, obviously, we know this, that this is part of what you're doing, that they're really struggling.

Guest 00:58:56

They're not enjoying life, they're miserable or they're struggling to find out what they're supposed to.

Guest 00:59:01

And things haven't yet fallen in place and they're not yet caught up and they don't feel like they're caught up yet.

Guest 00:59:05

And they're not able to look back over the last ten years and say, oh, my goodness, look at all the things that God has done.

Guest 00:59:09

And they're really, really struggling.

Guest 00:59:11

But through submission to God and his word and taking one day at a time and just obey and honor the Lord, do the best you can, you will look back, repent of sin, trust in Christ and the finished work of God.

Guest 00:59:23

I mean, Christianity is the only religion in the world that proclaims justification on the front end.

Guest 00:59:27

You can know right now you're right with God.

Guest 00:59:28

You don't have to wait, you don't have to try to get there.

Guest 00:59:30

You can know right now.

Guest 00:59:32

And in light of that, it's like, man, there's a lot of joy here.

Guest 00:59:34

Just one day at a time, trust the Lord.

Guest 00:59:37

And then eventually you're going to look back and you're going to say, mandy, look what God's done.

Guest 00:59:40

This is amazing and it's a whole lot better than my plan for me.

Jared Sparks 00:59:44

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jared Sparks 00:59:45

The plan, my plan for myself was not a good plan.

Jared Sparks 00:59:49

One of the kindest things God ever did was take my plan for me and give me a better one.

Jared Sparks 00:59:56

Throw that out.

Jared Sparks 00:59:57

I didn't need it to begin with.

Jared Sparks 00:59:59

And I think that, I guess what I want to put together for men is if there's a man who's listening, who's like, well, my plan fell apart, and God doesn't seem to have given me a plan just yet.

Jared Sparks 01:00:14

Maybe he's in an in between state or he's waiting, or he started climbing out of his own mistakes that he's made and he doesn't yet know what he's for, because it's all well and good for a pastor and a couple podcast hosts to be talking about all this stuff from the other end of our own ditches that we've climbed to.

Jared Sparks 01:00:33

At least in my case, it's something else entirely.

Jared Sparks 01:00:35

To be like, okay.

Jared Sparks 01:00:36

For a man listening, to be like, okay, what has that got to do with me?

Jared Sparks 01:00:39

Because I'm not on the microphone, right?

Jared Sparks 01:00:41

I'm listening.

Jared Sparks 01:00:43

What does this mean for me?

Jared Sparks 01:00:44

So maybe we can put it together for that man.

Guest 01:00:46

Yeah.

Guest 01:00:47

So I'm going to really make a pitch for what I've been working on for the last few years here and try to hammer this home, because I'm raising my sons.

Guest 01:00:53

I've got three sons and one little girl.

Guest 01:00:55

And in proverbs, chapter 40, I mean, excuse me, job, chapter 40, oldest book of the Bible, God calls out to job and he says, dress for action like a man.

Guest 01:01:06

You've heard your friend speak.

Guest 01:01:07

You just referenced job.

Guest 01:01:08

You've heard your friend speak.

Guest 01:01:09

Elihu has some good things to say, but now I'm going to speak and I want you to dress for action like a man.

Guest 01:01:15

Action like a man.

Guest 01:01:16

Okay.

Guest 01:01:17

A man has to know who he is and what he's for.

Guest 01:01:20

You're exactly right.

Guest 01:01:21

I'm getting ready.

Guest 01:01:22

My son next month is going to start his eight year mission quest through six rites of passage.

Guest 01:01:26

Who is a man?

Guest 01:01:27

Ultimately, a man is a worshipper.

Guest 01:01:29

Okay?

Guest 01:01:30

A man is called to worship.

Guest 01:01:31

And what we've put together and I've tried to say, we got to have who a man is, we got to define that.

Guest 01:01:36

And then what a man does and the six actions of man that I can take a biblical survey.

Guest 01:01:41

A man is called to worship, work, protect, provide lead and love.

Guest 01:01:44

Now, these are all themes that are recognized even through natural law and throughout civilizations around the world and down throughout history.

Guest 01:01:50

What is a man?

Guest 01:01:51

A man protects and a man provides.

Guest 01:01:53

These are common themes that are just witnessed and observable in nature itself.

Guest 01:01:57

Worship work, help, provide lead, or worship, work, protect, provide lead, love for the ladies side of that we're going to take our daughter through is worship, work, help, submit, fear nothing, love.

Guest 01:02:06

So these are, these are actions that God has called women to and that we're going to walk her through as she's being trained up by my wife and as I'm coming alongside and leading her in that as well, but for my son.

Guest 01:02:19

So the idea is every man is a worshiper.

Guest 01:02:21

You're either suppressing the truth and worshiping creation, or you're embracing the truth and worshiping creator.

Guest 01:02:26

And God has creator rights over his creation, and he's dictated to us what it means to be a man.

Guest 01:02:31

So as a worshiper, we submit to King Jesus and we lift up our head and you say, well, I don't know what to do today.

Guest 01:02:37

I have no direction in life, no vision in life.

Guest 01:02:38

Okay, well, you're a worshiper.

Guest 01:02:40

Don't worship creation.

Guest 01:02:40

Worship creator.

Guest 01:02:41

And then recognize that God has created you to work, worship, work.

Guest 01:02:46

What work do you have in your life?

Guest 01:02:48

Okay, get to work.

Guest 01:02:49

Put your hands to the plow.

Guest 01:02:50

Get some calloused hands, spiritually and physically.

Guest 01:02:53

I'm talking about get some calloused hands.

Guest 01:02:55

If you don't have good work to do, go join a landscaping crew somewhere.

Guest 01:02:58

Go out and mow your yard.

Guest 01:03:00

Go out and do something that's going to get you some calloused hands.

Guest 01:03:02

Where you.

Guest 01:03:03

I'm not talking about work for remuneration.

Guest 01:03:06

I'm talking about just work as a way of life.

Guest 01:03:08

Inside your home, outside your home, everywhere you go.

Guest 01:03:11

Six days, you shall work, worship, work, protect.

Guest 01:03:14

Well, you don't have a family to protect yet.

Guest 01:03:15

Okay, we'll work on it.

Guest 01:03:16

Go to the gym.

Guest 01:03:17

Get in jiu jitsu before you have to protect with a firearm, you protect with your body.

Guest 01:03:21

Get strong and be ready to be able to protect those that are around you and have some self respect.

Guest 01:03:26

Godly self respect.

Guest 01:03:27

Be able to protect yourself.

Guest 01:03:29

Provide.

Guest 01:03:30

Be able to provide.

Guest 01:03:32

Do what you can to learn investing now, learn how to turn some money, and you're either going to be poor through paying interest or you're going to get wealthy through earning interest.

Guest 01:03:42

So figure out money and finances and all that kind of stuff, because you're going to be a provider the rest of your life for yourself and others.

Guest 01:03:47

And then leadership.

Guest 01:03:49

Figure out what, who can you lead?

Guest 01:03:51

Okay?

Guest 01:03:51

It starts with taking responsibility.

Guest 01:03:53

Clean your truck out, be a leader, and show people what it looks like to have a clean truck.

Guest 01:03:58

You know, Peterson is on to something when he says, clean your room.

Guest 01:04:01

Okay.

Guest 01:04:01

There's simple steps here saying, take responsibility and ownership.

Guest 01:04:05

Take dominion and run towards the responsibilities you have right now.

Guest 01:04:10

Get some direction, man.

Guest 01:04:11

Let's go.

Guest 01:04:12

Head up, move forward, lead.

Guest 01:04:14

And then finally, love.

Guest 01:04:15

Love is all.

Guest 01:04:16

Love is sacrificial and it encompasses, you know, these kind of the bookends of this whole thing that I.

Guest 01:04:20

That I've tried to give direction to guys about is worship and love.

Guest 01:04:24

The bookends here, you're never not going to be a worshiper, and you're never not going to need love.

Guest 01:04:28

You're going to have to love God and others.

Guest 01:04:30

That's going to be the way your life advances the rest of your life.

Guest 01:04:33

And so for the guy that's, like, directionless, like, here's some who you are.

Guest 01:04:38

You're a worshiper.

Guest 01:04:39

What am I called to do?

Guest 01:04:40

Hey, do that today, work today.

Guest 01:04:42

Do something.

Guest 01:04:43

Lift your head and do what God's called you to do.

Guest 01:04:45

And so for me, will, it's like, man, I've been passionate about trying to piece this together, this biblical survey of manhood and womanhood, because it's just not going anywhere.

Guest 01:04:54

Sanctification requires being a Christ like man or a Christ like woman.

Guest 01:05:00

We cannot grow in Christ apart from our manhood or womanhood.

Guest 01:05:06

And so I think guys can have direction.

Guest 01:05:07

They've just got to get some handles and then get after it.

Jared Sparks 01:05:11

That's fantastic.

Jared Sparks 01:05:12

Worship, work, protect, provide, lead, love.

Guest 01:05:14

Exactly.

Jared Sparks 01:05:15

That's great.

Jared Sparks 01:05:16

That's great.

Jared Sparks 01:05:17

That is the most complete framework I've heard, because there's prophet, priest, and king, protect, provide, preside.

Jared Sparks 01:05:28

These are the general three, but it's always felt that that's always left something uncovered.

Jared Sparks 01:05:34

And so that framework is excellent because that covers all of the bases and it covers them in a systemic order where if you're not rightly worshiping, obviously it starts with worship that orders everything that follows.

Jared Sparks 01:05:48

But if you're not working, then you won't ever get to a place where you can actually love.

Jared Sparks 01:05:53

Right?

Jared Sparks 01:05:53

And you have to do them in this order, because if you work and you love before you protect and provide, then the whole thing kind of falls apart.

Jared Sparks 01:06:01

It's a structure that fits in a particular way.

Jared Sparks 01:06:03

Are you doing, is this work that you're doing just with pastors?

Jared Sparks 01:06:06

Is this something that you talk about on your website, or where does this take root in men's lives and the work that you do?

Jared Sparks 01:06:11

Or just your sons, perhaps?

Guest 01:06:13

Yeah, well, I mean, the most potent answer to that is right with my sons.

Guest 01:06:18

So I'm working through reading material.

Guest 01:06:20

I'm putting together basically a canon of literature that they're going to be reading for the next eight year process.

Guest 01:06:26

And so they're going to get the best of me and the best of my efforts when it comes to walking through these things.

Guest 01:06:31

And it's on the front end.

Guest 01:06:31

So I don't have, like the proof is in the pudding kind of thing here to say, now look at my sons.

Guest 01:06:35

They're all godly men and they're raised and, you know, crushed it in the world and their family and all that.

Guest 01:06:40

I don't have that.

Guest 01:06:40

I'm trying to do this on the front end and getting some direction and wanting to be as intentional as I can with that.

Guest 01:06:47

But I have put it out on the podcast.

Guest 01:06:50

I've worked through that and worked through even rites of passages tied to that and then work through the worship work, help, submit, fear nothing and love, which is on the women's side of things.

Guest 01:07:00

And I've done some writing on it and made some videos as well and going to continue to develop that over the years.

Guest 01:07:06

But I mean, my family's getting the best of that.

Guest 01:07:09

And I've worked with the guys at our church, like, they know these terms and trying to make some things that are malleable that people can take and apply these to their own situations, or they can modify it a little bit and then say, okay, here's what this looks like.

Guest 01:07:24

I don't like the word, you know, I like preside better than lead, you know?

Guest 01:07:28

Okay, well, that's fine then, you know, make it your own.

Guest 01:07:31

But yeah, online, website, podcast.

Guest 01:07:34

And that's really where I've been hammering these things out.

Jared Sparks 01:07:37

That's great.

Jared Sparks 01:07:38

And then you also have a retreat as well.

Jared Sparks 01:07:39

I know my friends Brandon and Matt went and they had, they had great things to say about it.

Jared Sparks 01:07:43

Unfortunately, I couldn't make it that weekend.

Guest 01:07:46

Yeah, yeah, it started about six years ago.

Guest 01:07:48

I wanted to do something that, well, I wanted to do something I wanted to do.

Guest 01:07:53

Like, I've been at conferences like crazy and I thought, well, what do I want to do?

Guest 01:07:58

And then maybe some other guys would want to do that, too.

Guest 01:08:00

So I thought, well, I want to go to the river.

Guest 01:08:01

I want to go float down a river because it's just fun and it's in the wilderness and there aren't houses everywhere and it's beautiful.

Guest 01:08:09

And then I thought, well, I want to invite some guys to come and I want to make it difficult.

Guest 01:08:14

So you leave this trip sore.

Guest 01:08:16

I mean, it's, it's, it is dangerous.

Guest 01:08:18

We've had some life threatening situations even this last year.

Guest 01:08:21

And in every year that we've gone, the exception of a couple, we've had some really dicey situations.

Guest 01:08:28

So I've always told people, you know, like it's called the intensive for the reason, you know, you might die.

Guest 01:08:32

So please come.

Guest 01:08:35

But yeah, this last year we had ad Robles come in.

Guest 01:08:37

Next year we got Andrew Isker that's going to be speaking, and Matt Reynolds spoke this year as well.

Guest 01:08:43

Matt, you mentioned Matt and Brandon.

Guest 01:08:44

Those guys have been a part of this for the last few years.

Guest 01:08:46

So we have a really just, it's a high quality group of men that come to this event.

Guest 01:08:50

And I do that once a year in May, the second weekend in May.

Guest 01:08:53

And, you know, if guys want to come, it's a really good time.

Guest 01:08:56

I'm hoping to get 70, I'm hoping eventually to get 100 plus men that come to this thing.

Guest 01:09:00

But, you know, it's just slowly grown over the last few years and we have great time and it ends up being a really good, you know, mixture of content and fun and challenge and camaraderie, which is all things I think men need.

Jared Sparks 01:09:14

That was what, that was the one thing that the mythopoetics, at least the mankind project anyway, that they got right.

Jared Sparks 01:09:20

It was a good mix of physical activity, although not really risky because they wanted to do an initiation that any man could accomplish regardless of age or ability.

Jared Sparks 01:09:28

But there was, there was intensive work.

Jared Sparks 01:09:30

It was, it was risky in its own way.

Jared Sparks 01:09:32

Like men were taking risks and there was, of course, plenty of content.

Jared Sparks 01:09:35

And it was, it wasn't just all like men just sitting around for 48 hours talking.

Jared Sparks 01:09:40

And it wasnt men pushing themselves and challenging themselves and each other.

Jared Sparks 01:09:45

It was a good and well structured mix of both.

Jared Sparks 01:09:48

And thats hard for men to find.

Jared Sparks 01:09:49

Like a conference is a bunch of sitting or standing around and talking.

Jared Sparks 01:09:53

Nothing wrong with that.

Jared Sparks 01:09:54

But ultimately, if youre going to get a bunch of men together, you need to do something more than just that because thats what men naturally want to do.

Jared Sparks 01:10:02

So what collective activity are we all going to do?

Jared Sparks 01:10:05

That's a challenge that we actually put our, put our backs to the plow a little bit and that's, that's really rare.

Jared Sparks 01:10:11

That's really rare to find.

Jared Sparks 01:10:11

Are you hunting bears or something like that?

Jared Sparks 01:10:13

Like what kind of, what kind of, I mean, I mean, if it's, if it's the secret sauce, you don't have to share, but, like, what sort of situations are men getting into?

Guest 01:10:21

Yeah.

Guest 01:10:21

Well, if I told you, I'd have to kill you, will, that's the seriousness of this.

Jared Sparks 01:10:24

If.

Jared Sparks 01:10:25

So, if you look down on your keyboard, there's the red button.

Jared Sparks 01:10:27

If you push that, it explodes.

Jared Sparks 01:10:28

My microphone explodes.

Jared Sparks 01:10:29

So no one's ever pushed?

Guest 01:10:31

No, I mean, there's no secret sauce here.

Guest 01:10:33

I mean, you know, we're not hunting bear.

Guest 01:10:35

I would actually, I have done that before.

Guest 01:10:36

I.

Guest 01:10:36

We've, I got a bear rug right in front of my office here of being able to kill and eat a bear, which is pretty fun.

Guest 01:10:42

But we, we get together, we do a river trip, so we float about almost 40 miles.

Guest 01:10:47

And then this year we had a strongman competition where we had intermediate beginner, intermediate, and then kind of the not pro level, but like, whatever's advanced situation.

Guest 01:10:58

So I got a strongman buddy of mine, and Matt Reynolds, you know, has been in the strongman world for years and still a monster.

Guest 01:11:04

He's actually training me.

Guest 01:11:05

Shout out to Barbara logic.

Guest 01:11:06

I've been working with him for a while.

Guest 01:11:07

Behind the scenes, I've always been skinny, but I've always been, like, skinny and weak.

Guest 01:11:11

So I thought, well, I'd really be skinny and strong.

Guest 01:11:13

So over the last year and a half, you know, I've tried to, what I'm wanting to do is like, man, I want to hit Max genetic strength that I can possibly get my max genetic potential and then stay there as long as I can is the idea.

Guest 01:11:25

So I've always been able to run 5 miles, but it's like, well, I'd rather.

Guest 01:11:29

So he's getting me strong.

Guest 01:11:30

It's funny.

Guest 01:11:31

I can actually bench press more than I can squat.

Guest 01:11:33

I'm like the classic, like, you know, chicken legs.

Guest 01:11:36

You know, those.

Guest 01:11:37

Your legs are, you're riding a chicken kind of guy.

Guest 01:11:39

And so trying to get strong, and so they do those kind of things there.

Guest 01:11:44

So we got the strongman competition, and we had, the young boys were doing an arm wrestling competition.

Guest 01:11:48

So it's just fun stuff.

Guest 01:11:50

It's just stuff that, you know, guys don't typically get to do.

Guest 01:11:53

But if you come on this trip, you're not going to get a pile of books, but you are going to get some good, good content around a fire.

Guest 01:11:58

You're going to get to float on the river and, you know, legitimately, it is a challenge that you're going to walk away from soar.

Guest 01:12:04

And, you know, one year, out of the 17 guys that went, there were 13 guys that were in legitimate life or death situations.

Guest 01:12:11

So the water was raging, and fortunately, by God's grace, we all survived.

Guest 01:12:18

But that year, I realized, like, man, it's like, for real serious.

Guest 01:12:21

And that was the one year I had everybody sign a death waiver as a joke.

Guest 01:12:26

And then we end up in these situations that are crazy.

Guest 01:12:32

So, yeah, here's the pitch.

Guest 01:12:33

If you want to come, would love for you to come.

Guest 01:12:34

And I tell you what, Will, if you end up coming next year, I'll give you.

Guest 01:12:37

You can definitely talk to us, but it's a good time and risk.

Guest 01:12:40

Next year.

Guest 01:12:41

I'm thinking about making the theme about power and the pursuit, the godly pursuit of power, as opposed to the ungodly pursuit of power and what that looks like in life.

Guest 01:12:53

But it's a great trip.

Guest 01:12:54

Would love for you guys to come.

Guest 01:12:56

It's always.

Guest 01:12:56

It's like the second weekend of May.

Guest 01:12:57

I forget the dates.

Guest 01:12:58

It's already up on the website and everything.

Guest 01:13:01

If I can send you the link to that, maybe you can put that in the show notes or something.

Jared Sparks 01:13:04

I'd love to be there.

Jared Sparks 01:13:05

I mean, Brandon and Matt told me about it.

Jared Sparks 01:13:07

There was something else I was doing that weekend this year that was important that I do.

Jared Sparks 01:13:11

So it was fine that I wasn't able to be there, but I would love to be there next year.

Jared Sparks 01:13:14

And that's actually, I've had some.

Jared Sparks 01:13:17

Some.

Jared Sparks 01:13:19

I don't know that I would call them near death experiences.

Jared Sparks 01:13:21

Like, I would.

Jared Sparks 01:13:22

I would call them encounters with non negotiable reality.

Jared Sparks 01:13:26

Like when you encounter nature.

Jared Sparks 01:13:27

And this is a situation that if it goes sideways, life could be at risk.

Jared Sparks 01:13:32

Like, that's a.

Jared Sparks 01:13:33

That's a thing that I'm to say that I'm grateful to have experienced is probably, in a sense, true, and in a sense, doesn't quite capture it, but it's something that I think men need.

Jared Sparks 01:13:43

Like when you actually are forced into a situation where you have no ability to negotiate with nature.

Jared Sparks 01:13:48

That's why barbell training is so powerful.

Jared Sparks 01:13:50

Like, you can't negotiate with a barbell, right.

Jared Sparks 01:13:52

But when you're facing down something so much bigger than you, right.

Jared Sparks 01:13:56

Whether it be an animal or whether it be a river or whether it be an ocean or a storm or whatever, you know, you can't negotiate with it.

Jared Sparks 01:14:02

You have to adapt yourself to it.

Jared Sparks 01:14:05

And most men, for millennia, that's what men dealt with in terms of their lives, situations that were far outside of their control, natural elements, forces that they could not negotiate with.

Jared Sparks 01:14:15

And they had to learn to adapt and overcome.

Jared Sparks 01:14:18

And today, everything in our modern world basically is negotiable.

Jared Sparks 01:14:22

Right.

Jared Sparks 01:14:22

Except perhaps taxes in some sense.

Jared Sparks 01:14:24

Right?

Jared Sparks 01:14:24

Death and taxes is the joke.

Jared Sparks 01:14:26

But to have those experiences where it's like, okay, we really have to be so focused and so present right now to do the best we can to make sure that if things do go sideways, we give ourselves the best chance.

Jared Sparks 01:14:38

That focuses a man's attention in a way that he never forgets.

Jared Sparks 01:14:41

And I don't want more men to experience that because it could go south for reasons that are out of his control and men could legitimately get hurt.

Jared Sparks 01:14:51

And I think that experience is very.

Jared Sparks 01:14:53

Is very powerful for a man to have.

Jared Sparks 01:14:55

It certainly has been unforgettable when it's happened to me.

Guest 01:14:58

Yeah, well, I think that's why the experiences you mentioned in the retreats and the different things that you've been on before.

Guest 01:15:04

When a man is pushed to what seems like his limit, I guess your physical limit is being pushed so far until you die or like, right before death.

Guest 01:15:12

But most men have not been in a situation where they've been.

Guest 01:15:15

So their physical exertion is so.

Guest 01:15:18

I can't do another push up.

Guest 01:15:19

I'm vomiting on myself.

Guest 01:15:22

I can't go another inch.

Guest 01:15:24

You know, most guys have never got that far.

Guest 01:15:26

There's a reason why guys that have gone through war together don't see each other for 40 years, and then they come together for their 40 year reunion since they.

Guest 01:15:35

The last time they saw each other.

Guest 01:15:36

And it's like they haven't missed a beat because they have these shared experiences, and they're incredibly powerful because it's shared experiences and misery.

Guest 01:15:44

And I don't know how you.

Guest 01:15:45

You replicate that in a way that is somewhat safe.

Guest 01:15:48

I don't.

Guest 01:15:48

I guess you can't do that in a way that's safe.

Guest 01:15:51

But you have to get away to push men to their limits or to get them in situations where 30 years from now you can remember it.

Guest 01:15:59

And you don't remember things from 30 years ago that weren't either dangerous or weren't crazy or that you didn't break your leg.

Guest 01:16:08

But what you do remember from 30 years ago was that crazy situation that you can't believe that you survived.

Guest 01:16:14

And a part of the trip that I'm trying to do is maybe not walk that line.

Guest 01:16:18

I really don't want guys to get hurt.

Guest 01:16:19

In fact, it's a father son trip.

Guest 01:16:20

We have sons like my son with this last year.

Guest 01:16:23

So I want people to.

Guest 01:16:24

I don't want people to be hurt or anything.

Guest 01:16:25

But I do want people to walk away thinking that, you know, that was hard.

Guest 01:16:29

And I'm really sore, and I'm glad I did that, but I'm really glad we're back at camp.

Guest 01:16:35

And it just barely scratches the surface of being pushed physically.

Guest 01:16:41

And I mean, with Barbell training or anything, I think for guys, most guys have just never been so physically exhausted that they feel like they can't get up and do anything else again.

Guest 01:16:53

They're just.

Guest 01:16:54

And that is so good for guys.

Guest 01:16:55

And I've had experiences like that.

Guest 01:16:56

I mean, even in college, the things that I went through, even with a fraternity, I mean, we had a weekend with a fraternity where we were physically pushed to our limit for 48 hours, where I couldn't do a single push up.

Guest 01:17:06

Well, it wasn't as hard as boot camp, but when I get together, those guys tap 81, man.

Guest 01:17:12

Like, it's silly college stuff, but we have stories where we literally were vomiting all over ourselves.

Guest 01:17:18

And there's something powerful about that.

Guest 01:17:20

When you connect lessons to the suck, when you connect lessons to those, especially when they're biblical, then it has a way of sticking with you the rest of your life.

Jared Sparks 01:17:32

Do you think that we talked about men running themselves into a ditch with pursuing success?

Jared Sparks 01:17:40

Do you think that part of it is that same instinct of men, of trying to push themselves into, we'll call it a fight or flight situation, where they really want to see how hard they can go.

Jared Sparks 01:17:51

Maybe they're not vomiting all over themselves physically, but they're seeking that thrill of pushing themselves beyond their own limitations.

Jared Sparks 01:17:58

Do you think that's part of it also?

Guest 01:18:01

Yeah, I think so.

Guest 01:18:02

I think think everybody, you know, back to Goggins or Cameron Haynes, I don't know if you're familiar with Cameron Haynes or not.

Guest 01:18:09

I listen to more of Cameron Haynes than I do of goggins.

Guest 01:18:12

There is in.

Guest 01:18:13

Huberman talks about this, too.

Guest 01:18:14

Andrew Huberman talks about how there's something that elite athletes or elite endurance athletes can tap into, and it's embracing pain, it's embracing physical pain.

Guest 01:18:24

And then at the other side of that, where you just take another step and another step and another step there, there's a way that you can train your brain.

Guest 01:18:33

You know, you're moving literally to the point of where some of these people that are such endurance, endurance athletes, the only way they're going to stop is literally going to drop dead.

Guest 01:18:41

I mean, that's because they're able to mentally control that.

Guest 01:18:44

I think there is an attraction to that to guys, but also of being able to tap into, especially the guys that are in that ditch of performance.

Guest 01:18:52

They want that.

Guest 01:18:52

But then the guys that are on the other side wish that they could, and I don't know what it is.

Guest 01:18:58

Maybe, you know, the key to this.

Guest 01:19:00

I don't know what, snaps people out of that to where they're.

Guest 01:19:03

They're snapped out of that other side ditch, and now they're extremely motivated.

Guest 01:19:07

There's all these non christian conversion stories of guys that were on the couch and realized I was gonna die if I didn't do something.

Guest 01:19:15

And then they're extremely motivated and had nothing to do with a testimony about how Jesus saved their soul.

Guest 01:19:21

It was just, I couldn't live like this anymore, and something just snapped in me.

Guest 01:19:25

So I think guys are extremely like that.

Guest 01:19:27

But then there's the whole key.

Guest 01:19:29

I mean, it's.

Guest 01:19:29

This whole thing we're talking about here is we don't have to be in one ditch or the other, you know, the guys that you don't have to fall in that ditch.

Guest 01:19:34

It's not inevitable that the rest of our life we run headlong one side of the wrong side of the road, then turn and say, oh, you know, crap, I'm on the wrong side, and I got to run this way the rest of my life.

Guest 01:19:46

You can be a healthy man.

Guest 01:19:47

You really can.

Guest 01:19:48

And you can have proper ambition.

Guest 01:19:50

You can have proper drive.

Guest 01:19:51

And it can be, you know, a drive that's a whole lot bigger than another man's drive.

Guest 01:19:57

And another man's drive is the best he's got in with that two talents.

Guest 01:20:00

But you just don't have to walk on one ditch or the other.

Guest 01:20:03

You can really walk the middle of the road.

Jared Sparks 01:20:06

I think.

Jared Sparks 01:20:07

I think there's also a feeling of men chasing their own edge.

Jared Sparks 01:20:12

Like, what.

Jared Sparks 01:20:13

What motivates a mandev to want to do that?

Jared Sparks 01:20:16

So there's the guy on the couch who.

Jared Sparks 01:20:18

Who says, I can't live like this anymore.

Jared Sparks 01:20:20

And then he does, you know, he loses 300 pounds.

Jared Sparks 01:20:23

Like, there's a.

Jared Sparks 01:20:24

There's an actor.

Jared Sparks 01:20:25

So there was a man who.

Jared Sparks 01:20:26

I can't remember his name.

Jared Sparks 01:20:27

He was just massively obese, and he.

Guest 01:20:30

Decided to go, oh, I know who you're talking about.

Jared Sparks 01:20:32

Right.

Jared Sparks 01:20:32

Yeah.

Jared Sparks 01:20:33

And he's.

Jared Sparks 01:20:33

He's.

Jared Sparks 01:20:34

I mean, obviously he's got Ethan.

Guest 01:20:35

Was it Ethan?

Guest 01:20:37

Ethan something?

Jared Sparks 01:20:38

I think.

Jared Sparks 01:20:39

So that.

Jared Sparks 01:20:39

That's one.

Jared Sparks 01:20:40

That's the actor guy.

Jared Sparks 01:20:41

And then.

Jared Sparks 01:20:41

Yeah, then there's the other guy.

Jared Sparks 01:20:43

I don't know that he was an actor, but he has all these folds of skin hanging off of him now.

Jared Sparks 01:20:48

Like, it's massive surgery to get that all fixed.

Jared Sparks 01:20:50

I mean, that's a real side effect.

Jared Sparks 01:20:51

But there's a moment where a man wakes up and decides he's going to chase something and maybe his life depends on it.

Jared Sparks 01:20:59

And that's, unfortunately how a lot of men are.

Jared Sparks 01:21:03

There's only two things that ever really motivate somebody properly outside of Christianity.

Jared Sparks 01:21:08

It's either fear, love.

Jared Sparks 01:21:11

Like, either you're going towards something that you're pursuing passionately, or you're afraid of something that's chasing you.

Jared Sparks 01:21:16

It's one of those.

Jared Sparks 01:21:17

It's one of those two things.

Jared Sparks 01:21:18

And so most men will wait until something starts chasing them before they start making real changes.

Jared Sparks 01:21:24

And that can be very effective.

Jared Sparks 01:21:26

But one of the big questions that I think everyone asks is, okay, so you don't have anything objectively chasing you, but you need to get up and you need to run in that direction as fast as you can.

Jared Sparks 01:21:37

No, I'll do it tomorrow.

Jared Sparks 01:21:38

How do you light that fire inside somebody?

Jared Sparks 01:21:41

And I think that's what men are wanting when they push themselves into dangerous situations.

Jared Sparks 01:21:45

Like young men obviously have more testosterone, so it's easier to light that spark.

Jared Sparks 01:21:50

But once men start getting in their twenties and their thirties, they still have that longing to chase something, but they don't have the ability to overcome themselves.

Jared Sparks 01:21:58

I think that's the inspiration of David Goggins, but he's insane.

Jared Sparks 01:22:01

So how does a normal, healthy Christian Mandez sort of tap into that?

Jared Sparks 01:22:06

I don't have any good answers.

Jared Sparks 01:22:07

It seems to be one of those things that God just gives to a man at some day.

Jared Sparks 01:22:11

But I would like it to be something other than that.

Guest 01:23:30

Yeah.

Guest 01:23:31

And it seems almost like a first world 2024 issue or the last 50 year issue, because I think a lot of these questions that we have now when you, maybe you're not in abject poverty, but you really are working to provide day in and day out, and you're physically, you know, working with your body, and maybe this all goes back and everybody, it's industrial age just screwed everything up.

Guest 01:23:55

Okay, so, but before that, when everybody was agrarian and working on the farm kind of thing.

Guest 01:24:01

But today I think you have to.

Guest 01:24:03

I mean, the strenuous life has been popular for a long time.

Guest 01:24:08

The teddy Roosevelt way not wouldn't be a huge fan of his politics, but I.

Guest 01:24:13

The pursuit of physical pain has its place.

Guest 01:24:21

I've disciplined my body.

Guest 01:24:23

I'm pursuing something.

Guest 01:24:24

And in today's world, the man has to pursue some sort of physical labor, even if he's a white collar worker.

Guest 01:24:32

And one of the things I've tried to talk to pastors about is like, man, you got to view yourself as a blue collar worker, not an office worker, not carrying a briefcase.

Guest 01:24:40

You've got a shepherd's crook and you have a weapon and you're pulling people in.

Guest 01:24:45

Okay?

Guest 01:24:45

So that's the whole thing is you're pulling people back in and you're fighting like crazy.

Guest 01:24:51

You're a blue collar worker and you gotta have calloused hands.

Guest 01:24:54

So I've encouraged pastors and just men in general, you've got to pursue.

Guest 01:24:58

And I think that's why Barbell training or anything like that, it's been, it's been great for me.

Guest 01:25:03

If men, if men don't pursue what you're talking about, we live in a world that won't give it to them.

Guest 01:25:11

We live in a world that will make men soft and keep men soft and want men to be soft.

Guest 01:25:15

And they want men to literally live as our first father, Adam, standing by passively and cheer on Eve as she goes out and pursues everything that we're called to pursue.

Guest 01:25:25

And so we have to.

Guest 01:25:27

We have to live the strenuous life.

Guest 01:25:29

We have to pursue this.

Guest 01:25:30

We have to discipline our body as we discipline our soul and discipline our life.

Guest 01:25:34

And that means pursuing.

Guest 01:25:35

That means waking up today and say, okay, I am going to get a gym membership or I'm going to run to the stop sign today and back.

Guest 01:25:40

It really matters because in 24, 24, we're not going to get that.

Guest 01:25:44

We had to pursue it.

Jared Sparks 01:25:47

This is fantastic.

Jared Sparks 01:25:49

I haven't had a conversation about these aspects of masculinity in a long time.

Jared Sparks 01:25:52

And this is very refreshing.

Jared Sparks 01:25:57

Okay.

Jared Sparks 01:25:57

So I think on the farm, like, even when we were in a pre industrial era, we were still, as men, forced to encounter non negotiable reality.

Jared Sparks 01:26:08

So I read this book recently called Lonesome Dove.

Jared Sparks 01:26:10

It's called, the people call it the greatest western novel of all time.

Jared Sparks 01:26:14

It's like 900 pages.

Jared Sparks 01:26:16

And I think it was written in the early eighties, so it doesn't have any of the wokeness that we really see today.

Jared Sparks 01:26:23

But one of the things that struck me about that book, it's about a cattle drive from, I believe it's like East Texas up to Montana.

Jared Sparks 01:26:29

So it's sort of through the American Midwest as the civil war has ended and the frontier is being settled.

Jared Sparks 01:26:36

So it's like a portrait of what America was like, say, 150 years ago.

Jared Sparks 01:26:40

And one of the things that struck me about reading that book is all the misfortune that this team of men driving these cattle northwards encounter.

Jared Sparks 01:26:50

So whether it be environmental in terms of weather, whether it be natives who are Native Americans who are at the very end of their era of dominance in the west, who are still attacking the white men, whether it be illness and all kinds of terrible things, but the men throughout this book are constantly in this very particular era.

Jared Sparks 01:27:11

It's just in America, it's just after the industrial revolution had started, but it hadn't spread westward yet.

Jared Sparks 01:27:17

So the men in this era are constantly forced to overcome circumstances that are larger than them.

Jared Sparks 01:27:22

And so in our modern era, now that we have all this affluence, we're not forced to do that anymore.

Jared Sparks 01:27:27

And so I think you said very rightly that the modern era is trying to soften us.

Jared Sparks 01:27:33

Right, it's trying to soften us and there's no apparent ability to cultivate that edge because there's no risk anymore.

Jared Sparks 01:27:39

Right, so like we're not going to be.

Jared Sparks 01:27:41

It gets 120 degrees here in Phoenix, big deal.

Jared Sparks 01:27:44

I go inside, air conditioning turns on, no problem.

Jared Sparks 01:27:47

I don't have to negotiate that.

Jared Sparks 01:27:49

I'm very grateful and.

Jared Sparks 01:27:50

Right, so I guess the challenge then is how can we create, is it even practical or possible to create life or death edge sharpening situations for men to help them break out of their own passivity?

Jared Sparks 01:28:08

Because I think we'd agree that passivity is the ditch on one side of the road.

Jared Sparks 01:28:11

But then you also don't want to make embracing the pain your identity like a David Goggins does.

Jared Sparks 01:28:16

That's the ditch on the other side of the road.

Jared Sparks 01:28:18

What's the right dose for this that we can give to the average man?

Jared Sparks 01:28:22

And how can we get him to a point where he's dosing himself rather than God saying, you're 300 pounds and your doctor just gave you a bad diagnosis, you better fix this.

Jared Sparks 01:28:31

How do men dose themselves with the right amount of this motivation to begin cultivating themselves?

Jared Sparks 01:28:36

Because I think you're right, it is very much a modern problem.

Jared Sparks 01:28:39

It's 1000% a 2024 problem.

Guest 01:28:43

Yeah, well, I think for men that are doing well, you have to consider helping and bringing other men along and saying, hey, let's do this together.

Guest 01:28:51

I've got a buddy of mine, Pastor buddy of mine that's in one town over.

Guest 01:28:54

My buddy Mark.

Guest 01:28:55

Mark Goldman is I think, 43 years old, 44 years old, something like that.

Guest 01:29:01

And he's got a group of young guys that are around him and he signed up for Brett McKay's strenuous life, their program that they do or whatever, I forget exactly.

Guest 01:29:09

I think it's just called the strenuous life.

Guest 01:29:11

And he was doing one of the challenges, was walking 50 miles in one day.

Guest 01:29:17

So he got a buddy of his at his church.

Guest 01:29:19

Whoa.

Guest 01:29:20

And he had been doing some training and stuff, but he hadn't walked.

Guest 01:29:23

I mean, he hadn't walked anything close to that ever.

Guest 01:29:25

He was.

Guest 01:29:26

He's not a runner.

Guest 01:29:27

He works out.

Guest 01:29:27

He's in shape, but he's.

Guest 01:29:29

I mean, he's not training for anything like that.

Guest 01:29:31

I mean, how do you train for a 50 miles walk?

Guest 01:29:33

Well, they did it.

Guest 01:29:34

They walked for 50 miles.

Guest 01:29:36

They ended with their joints sore.

Guest 01:29:38

It took days to recover.

Guest 01:29:40

And you look at that and you think, like, in some.

Guest 01:29:43

You know, for a lot of people, they think that's really.

Guest 01:29:44

That's silly.

Guest 01:29:45

What.

Guest 01:29:45

What's the point?

Guest 01:29:46

Why would you even do that?

Guest 01:29:47

But in 2024, that kind of stuff matters.

Guest 01:29:51

And for those two guys that did that, they're going to remember that the rest of their life.

Guest 01:29:55

But it's also.

Guest 01:29:56

There's something in them.

Guest 01:29:57

It's like, I.

Guest 01:29:58

I was built to be strong.

Guest 01:29:59

I was built to handle and be able to handle difficulty and pain and challenge and to work through these things.

Guest 01:30:05

And I'm going to.

Guest 01:30:07

From mind atrophy to body atrophy, if I don't make myself strong, if I don't do things that require my mind to make my body keep going, then I'm going to be weak in all areas of life and at least in many more areas of life than I currently am.

Guest 01:30:22

So there's something profound about that and bringing somebody else along.

Guest 01:30:25

And so, for me, what I've tried to do with the guys that I disciple is instead of just meeting with coffee, coffee's fine.

Guest 01:30:33

There's nothing wrong with coffee and face to face stuff, but I try to give them experiences that are enjoyable but also a physical challenge.

Guest 01:30:39

So, with one guy, we're running, we run together, and he did my friend Ben.

Guest 01:30:45

Ben, you're getting outed here.

Guest 01:30:46

He puked, we're running.

Guest 01:30:48

And he just literally is like, dude, I can't do this.

Guest 01:30:50

And he just puked.

Guest 01:30:51

And that's good.

Guest 01:30:53

That's a good thing.

Guest 01:30:55

And so I think it requires bringing other guys along, you know, the guys that are struggling your life.

Guest 01:31:00

Okay?

Guest 01:31:01

Recognize that.

Guest 01:31:02

And then for yourself, no matter where you're at in life, you got to be the kind of man that recognizes there's going to be some guys that challenge me, and I want to be around them.

Guest 01:31:09

They're going to challenge me to be bigger.

Guest 01:31:10

They're going to be trying to be stronger.

Guest 01:31:11

They're going to be challenging me to be more godly, and I need that.

Guest 01:31:15

And then I'm going to be that for somebody else.

Jared Sparks 01:31:18

Is this something that you do with all the men in your church, or is it just, is it something that you take particular interest or they have to approach you?

Jared Sparks 01:31:24

Because this seems to me to be a modern development of what pastors and brothers in Christ do.

Jared Sparks 01:31:33

We can no longer rely on our fathers to get us to a place where we're all able to operate as a team.

Jared Sparks 01:31:39

And this is a generational problem.

Jared Sparks 01:31:41

I think it'll be fixed in a couple generations.

Jared Sparks 01:31:44

But now men are looking to each other like, hey, we don't know how to do this man thing.

Jared Sparks 01:31:48

What do we do?

Jared Sparks 01:31:48

We'll just all figure it out together.

Jared Sparks 01:31:51

And so they're also turning to pastors in some way to help show them that also.

Jared Sparks 01:31:56

And so I see that men are being gravitating towards churches with strong, masculine pastors who can guide them in these things.

Jared Sparks 01:32:04

But maybe pastors don't necessarily know they're supposed to be teaching these things because, as you said, they have to learn them themselves in many cases.

Jared Sparks 01:32:11

So some of these things, like these things that you do for the men in your church or that you encourage them in as well?

Guest 01:32:18

Yeah, definitely.

Guest 01:32:18

I mean, last year we did a.

Guest 01:32:20

We were training for the Murph, so, meeting for Memorial day of 2023, it ended with only four of us doing it, but we got it done in under an hour, which is pretty cool.

Guest 01:32:29

I think we're like 58 minutes or something like that, me and a few other guys, but we had.

Guest 01:32:34

We had a group that was doing 50 push ups a day.

Guest 01:32:36

We moved it up to 100 push ups a day.

Guest 01:32:38

And we were all texting each other and all this kind of stuff.

Guest 01:32:40

That was last year.

Guest 01:32:41

But no, for me, I just drew a line in the sand.

Guest 01:32:43

When it comes to discipleship, I can either work with guys in an office, drinking coffee, going over a book, or I can actually do something that I enjoy and that they're going to enjoy.

Guest 01:32:54

And most guys don't have friends in their twenties and thirties.

Guest 01:32:57

They struggle with that.

Guest 01:32:58

So I'm not saying that with every guy that I meet with, we're doing physically demanding things, because with a lot of guys that I meet with, we go fishing.

Guest 01:33:06

I meet with him at my house.

Guest 01:33:07

My home office is here.

Guest 01:33:08

We go down to a pond that's right down the road from me.

Guest 01:33:11

And we fish together.

Guest 01:33:13

So there.

Guest 01:33:14

There are many different things that I do.

Guest 01:33:15

Or we shoot a bow together, so we get our bows out and we shoot a bow together.

Guest 01:33:19

And I'm always wanting to do something with these guys beyond besides just sitting down and drinking coffee, but I'm always wanting to be discipling a group of.

Guest 01:33:26

A group of, you know, three to four guys at a time, and then that rotates.

Guest 01:33:31

One guy gets a job and has to move, or another guy leaves from college and goes back home or something like that.

Guest 01:33:37

But, you know, we want to always be discipling some guys in our church and then, you know, have somebody that's discipling us.

Guest 01:33:43

And so, for me, it's just worked best.

Guest 01:33:45

Let's do something we enjoy to do, or let's run together, and instead of drinking the coffee and going through the book, we'll just do something we enjoy, and we'll still go through the book.

Guest 01:33:55

We'll talk about it.

Guest 01:33:56

But for us, that's been.

Guest 01:33:58

Well, if anything else, it's been a lot of fun.

Guest 01:34:00

And guys enjoy doing that a whole lot more than they just enjoy sitting down and drinking coffee.

Jared Sparks 01:34:05

Have you seen benefits to this in men's spiritual lives?

Guest 01:34:09

Oh, definitely.

Guest 01:34:10

I mean, like, so if I just think about our church, we've got issues.

Guest 01:34:14

We just actually went through a season of challenge in eight years.

Guest 01:34:17

This has probably been the biggest challenge we faced in the last two or three months.

Guest 01:34:22

And God's faithful.

Guest 01:34:24

He got us through it.

Guest 01:34:25

We've got our head held high.

Guest 01:34:28

But as I.

Guest 01:34:29

So we've got our issues.

Guest 01:34:30

But when I think about that, when I think about the overall health of the men in our church, they're doing family worship.

Guest 01:34:38

They are driven men.

Guest 01:34:42

They love their families.

Guest 01:34:44

They have good marriages.

Guest 01:34:45

They're working hard and advancing in careers, and their businesses are growing.

Guest 01:34:51

So as I just look at what's happening, there's been a lot of fruit.

Guest 01:34:54

I mean, there's a lot of really great things happening with these guys.

Guest 01:34:57

They are not depressed dudes that are sitting on the couch.

Guest 01:35:03

They're guys that are motivated, and they're doing some great things.

Guest 01:35:06

And God's bringing a lot of blessing and fruit.

Guest 01:35:09

So, I don't know.

Guest 01:35:10

It's a really sweet season.

Guest 01:35:11

There may be seasons of the future where it's not the case.

Guest 01:35:13

We don't have a ton of young men.

Guest 01:35:14

In fact, we have some young women right now that we need some more young men to be around because we've like, hey, there's some great marriage eligible women here.

Guest 01:35:23

That are godly, that are real women, that would be great for some young men to marry.

Guest 01:35:28

But the guys that we do have, which in our church, we do probably have more overall men than women, but there's a disproportionate young women to young men when it comes to late teens, early twenties.

Guest 01:35:41

But the guys are doing great, man, and it's a neat thing to be a part of.

Guest 01:35:45

So there does seem to be some immediate fruit from real discipleship, and these guys are real dudes that love the Lord and love their families.

Jared Sparks 01:35:53

So you mentioned the young women you gave the worship work, protect, provide lead and love.

Jared Sparks 01:35:58

Did I get all those for your.

Jared Sparks 01:36:00

So for women, you said worship, work, help, submit, fear nothing, love.

Jared Sparks 01:36:05

Can you walk through those really quickly?

Jared Sparks 01:36:07

That was awesome.

Guest 01:36:08

Well, so there's some things that overlap, but they overlap in masculine and feminine ways.

Guest 01:36:13

So we say worship women are created by God.

Guest 01:36:17

They're either going to be worshiping creation or creator.

Guest 01:36:20

God has creator rights over her.

Guest 01:36:21

So she's going to be a worshiper as a woman, and she's going to be living as God has called her to live as a woman.

Guest 01:36:26

So worship work, there's a difference between masculine and feminine work.

Guest 01:36:29

Again, there's some overlap, but a lady's work is always going to be primarily from the home out.

Guest 01:36:33

So there's the way I've always talked about it is primary, secondary.

Guest 01:36:37

Anything that she does outside of the home is going to be an overflow of what happens from the gifts, skills, aptitudes, abilities that she has been given by God inside the home.

Guest 01:36:46

And so you see that priority of primary secondary in proverbs 31, where the proverbs 31, woman takes care of her household.

Guest 01:36:52

She's not scared of the winter.

Guest 01:36:54

She recognizes that her, what she's making for her household is valuable, but doesn't do anything with it until later on in the chapter after her family is provided for.

Guest 01:37:03

So then afterwards, you even see these merchant ships are taking her products far away.

Guest 01:37:07

So this is a literally an international business that she's a.

Guest 01:37:10

She's.

Guest 01:37:11

It's just amazing.

Guest 01:37:11

But it's all coming from the household order and the principle of primary, secondary.

Guest 01:37:16

So work and then help.

Guest 01:37:20

So all ladies are helpers, married or not, they're created to help.

Guest 01:37:22

And we're already training our little girl providence.

Guest 01:37:25

Providence girls are helpers.

Guest 01:37:26

So she wants to help with whatever the mission is in front of her.

Guest 01:37:30

She wants to be a helper with that and help it succeed and to be better and to see it grow.

Guest 01:37:34

And all of those things submit.

Guest 01:37:37

Submission is a uniquely given gift to women.

Guest 01:37:42

Where men are called to submit to God, there's a glorious gift of a lady getting to submit to her husband.

Guest 01:37:49

And not only that, she gets to submit to a body of elders at a church as well, in a uniquely different way.

Guest 01:37:56

But submission is a glorious gift.

Guest 01:37:57

And that's what I've tried to encourage men and women with will, is that every man should love the commission God has given him, the prohibitions God has given him, and the limitations God has given him.

Guest 01:38:08

And every woman should love the commissioning God has given her, the prohibitions God has given her, and the limitations God has given her.

Guest 01:38:16

So when we think about the word submit, every woman should love it.

Guest 01:38:18

They should hear it and think, yes, I get to submit to a husband and then fear nothing is in following in the way of Sarah.

Guest 01:38:25

She didn't fear anything that was frightening.

Guest 01:38:27

Even calling her husband lord, she didn't understand, she didn't fear hierarchy.

Guest 01:38:30

She didn't fear anything that was frightening.

Guest 01:38:32

And there's a lot of frightening things in the world.

Guest 01:38:34

And we need women who are not scared of anything but God.

Guest 01:38:38

They fear God.

Guest 01:38:39

They don't fear man.

Guest 01:38:40

And so this is an action.

Guest 01:38:42

Women need to be called out of fear and anxiety, and they need to be called to be like Sarah and to be fearless, and then, so worship, work, help, submit, fear nothing, and then love.

Guest 01:38:54

And so women are trained to what we think is very natural, to love their husbands and children.

Guest 01:39:02

This is older women teaching the younger women to do this.

Guest 01:39:04

That means it needs to be trained.

Guest 01:39:06

They need training in this.

Guest 01:39:07

So her call is forever a pursuit of proper love in a domestic way, husband and children.

Guest 01:39:14

And so that's what we're going to be working through with our daughter and, you know, developing that.

Guest 01:39:19

We're actually doing a series right now on Jordan's, my wife's podcast, fruitful and fearless.

Guest 01:39:22

We're actually working through these right now as we speak.

Guest 01:39:25

We just went through, let's see, the last released episode was on help, but I think ladies as well, we're always talking about rites of passage for men.

Guest 01:39:34

And the default is, well, ladies have a rite of passage built into her body for moving from womanhood or from girlhood to womanhood.

Guest 01:39:42

But I think a lot of ladies are just as confused as the men are about what womanhood is.

Guest 01:39:46

And she starts her period, but that doesn't make her a woman.

Guest 01:39:48

And yet people think that's built into what womanhood is, but it also is required for her to be trained by these older women what being a woman is.

Guest 01:39:58

And pastors are under this great obligation of teaching biblical womanhood, even though they're not women.

Guest 01:40:03

I don't have to be a woman to teach biblical womanhood because the Bible is authoritative about who a woman is and what a woman does.

Guest 01:40:09

And so I have this obligation for our church, but also I'm working with my wife as we train our daughter up in this.

Guest 01:40:14

And so I think it's critical for boys, for men, and we have three sons.

Guest 01:40:18

So I've been thinking about this for years with them, but now with a daughter, it's like, well, they really need.

Guest 01:40:23

If I'm going to raise my children in the discipline and the instruction of the Lord, then that means I have to raise boys as boys and girls as girls.

Guest 01:40:30

And we need to give this positive vision, a biblical vision of what that is.

Guest 01:40:34

And so that's what we're doing with the ladies as well.

Jared Sparks 01:40:37

Sorry, what did you say your wife's podcast is called?

Guest 01:40:40

It's fruitful and fearless.

Guest 01:40:42

So that started with Brian's wife, Lexi Jordan.

Guest 01:40:46

And Lexi did a podcast, Brian Sovey's wife, Lexi Jordan, and her did about 100 something episodes together.

Guest 01:40:51

And then Lexi started bright hearth with Brian, and Jordan's continued to do that with her and I, and then also some other ladies as well.

Guest 01:40:58

So that's called fruitful and fearless.

Guest 01:41:00

And she does a great job.

Guest 01:41:01

It's been, been going for a few years now, and it's a lot of fun.

Jared Sparks 01:41:05

Praise God, brother.

Jared Sparks 01:41:06

I'm so happy to hear that.

Jared Sparks 01:41:07

I was just at the Ogden conference, the new Christendom conference, and it was an awesome time.

Jared Sparks 01:41:13

A thousand people there.

Jared Sparks 01:41:14

And one of the things that struck me being in the auditorium, they filled up the Ogden high school auditorium, was how many women were there?

Jared Sparks 01:41:21

And, you know, you would think that the refuge guys, you know, stuff for masculinity.

Jared Sparks 01:41:26

Now, of course, a lot of those women were wives and a lot of children as well.

Jared Sparks 01:41:30

But then I remember the bright hearth and how popular bright hearth is, and just how many, like all the men, we're talking about haunted cosmos or King's hall women were all talking about breit hearth.

Jared Sparks 01:41:39

I'm like, there's something very profoundly healthy happening here that we can all, that we can all meet and discuss this.

Jared Sparks 01:41:45

Of course, Moscow has their own version of it going on and has been for a while.

Jared Sparks 01:41:48

So I've been greatly encouraged to hear how enthusiastic women are for high quality content about godly femininity.

Jared Sparks 01:41:55

Because as men are learning what it means to be men, we don't need to learn what it means to be a woman in quite the same way.

Jared Sparks 01:42:00

But it's surprising to find out, oh, yeah, women need to learn what it means to be a woman today.

Jared Sparks 01:42:04

That's how inverted and flipped around everything has become.

Guest 01:42:08

Yeah.

Guest 01:42:08

Yes.

Guest 01:42:08

An amen to all of that.

Guest 01:42:10

I mean, a hearty amen to all of that.

Guest 01:42:12

I think, ladies.

Guest 01:42:14

And the weird thing about egalitarianism or soft complementarianism is they actually have the devalued and low view of women because they really believe that women can't handle what God has told them.

Guest 01:42:23

And it's those in the biblical patriarchy camp or just the biblical camp that say women are called to fear nothing.

Guest 01:42:30

That's frightening.

Guest 01:42:31

And one of the things that's not burdensome and frightening, the commands of God, our father, to his children, and what God has called, called women to do and to be is glorious and good.

Guest 01:42:40

And we should expect that our women, when they hear prohibitions from God, should say, okay, amen.

Guest 01:42:47

Or when they hear a commission from God, should say, yeah, okay, God.

Guest 01:42:50

Thank you.

Guest 01:42:51

And so I think that those that are speaking clearly about what God has said to men and women without apology are getting a listening ear because ladies are like, yes, finally, please tell me.

Guest 01:43:02

I mean, my husband, I should expect my husband to want to do what God's called him to do.

Guest 01:43:06

So I want to do what God's called me to do.

Guest 01:43:08

And those that are saying, okay, here's the path that it's going to look a little bit differently, maybe with you and how this is applied.

Guest 01:43:15

But those that are speaking clearly to that, I think are getting a massive following because nobody else has been and everybody else has been apologizing or tiptoeing.

Guest 01:43:22

So those that are just saying, here's what God says that aren't stuttering and saying, or aren't apologizing, are getting an audience.

Guest 01:43:28

And I think that's a very good thing.

Jared Sparks 01:43:30

Amen.

Jared Sparks 01:43:30

Well, I have to get ready for a dentist appointment, so my own life and death experience today, but I do have just one more quick question for you.

Jared Sparks 01:43:38

You mentioned fear nothing.

Jared Sparks 01:43:40

And so one of the things that I've been focusing on a lot lately, and sort of my research and the content that I've been developing is around a lot of new age healing modalities that seem to speak specifically to women's anxieties.

Jared Sparks 01:43:54

That seems to be the hook for a lot of it.

Jared Sparks 01:43:56

And I've gotten some of it on my stories as well.

Jared Sparks 01:43:58

And I have a lot more to say about this.

Jared Sparks 01:44:00

So it seems like the dialogue that the biblical patriarchy or just the biblical camp has gotten to the point and the dialogue that they've gotten to is, okay, they've gotten through the work, the worship part for women.

Jared Sparks 01:44:12

They've gotten to the work part.

Jared Sparks 01:44:13

Yes, proverbs 31 all day.

Jared Sparks 01:44:15

And then they've gotten to the help part, like, okay, we can get down with that.

Jared Sparks 01:44:18

And then there's a submit thing, and that's still kind of uncomfortable, but there's a step past that, which is women's innate anxiety.

Jared Sparks 01:44:26

Fear.

Jared Sparks 01:44:26

Right.

Jared Sparks 01:44:27

And that spot seems to be the most sensitive that no one really wants to speak into.

Jared Sparks 01:44:34

And it sounds like that's something that you and your wife have some experience with.

Jared Sparks 01:44:38

So maybe you can help disciple some of the women listening and perhaps even some of the men listening for how to speak into that anxious part of that exists in many women today, and that may just be part of femininity in general.

Guest 01:44:51

Yeah, well, the good thing is, is that Jesus speaks directly to this.

Guest 01:44:55

And we have so psychologized anxiety that we have missed the plain teaching of Jesus.

Guest 01:45:00

So there's a funny Bob Newhart Saturday Night live skit from years ago where he's a psychiatrist, and this lady comes in wanting help.

Guest 01:45:09

She's scared to die in a box.

Guest 01:45:10

She's claustrophobic.

Guest 01:45:11

And he responds back with two words, stop it.

Guest 01:45:15

And he just keeps saying, stop it.

Guest 01:45:16

And it's really, he's like, stop it.

Guest 01:45:18

This is what I want to tell you.

Guest 01:45:20

And Jesus is like that, but a million times better, where there's those that face anxiety, and Jesus has no fear.

Guest 01:45:27

Talking to people who have anxieties, fears and worries, and saying, don't be anxious about anything, stop it.

Guest 01:45:34

Don't be anxious.

Guest 01:45:35

And most anxiety, most anxiety is sin that needs to be repented of.

Guest 01:45:41

It's sin for which that Jesus died.

Guest 01:45:43

For most anxiety, some anxiety is in the category.

Guest 01:45:47

It's unexplained.

Guest 01:45:48

Our physiology is very unique.

Guest 01:45:50

And I deal with a father that deals with mental illness, has for years been in and out of prison or in and out of jail, not prison, but has dealt with mental problems.

Guest 01:46:00

And I understand mental health and have been working around that for years and years.

Guest 01:46:03

And I understand that there's a legitimate struggles that people face, and still most anxieties and worries are in the category of sin.

Guest 01:46:12

And so what Jesus does to people who, when they talk about their anxiety, they get more anxious.

Guest 01:46:17

When they talk about worry, they get more afraid or more fear, fearful.

Guest 01:46:20

And Jesus just says, don't be anxious.

Guest 01:46:23

Stop.

Guest 01:46:24

Quit it.

Guest 01:46:25

And if it's a command, then to do it is a violation of that command.

Guest 01:46:29

And so I think what people need to hear and what ladies need to hear is stop being anxious.

Guest 01:46:33

Repent and turn to Jesus.

Guest 01:46:35

Trust him.

Guest 01:46:35

You're in his hand.

Guest 01:46:36

And when you worry again, when you're concerned again, when it comes back again, and it comes back fiercely, you need to stop, and you need to pray right now.

Guest 01:46:45

Okay, I'm going to stop this.

Guest 01:46:46

I'm going to do whatever it takes.

Guest 01:46:47

I'm going to ask for God's help, but I'm going to repent of this.

Guest 01:46:50

And then in the small minority of folks that are dealing with physiological problems that are unexplained, they're not just chemical imbalances or anything, but there's so much there between body and soul that's working together that's hard to understand.

Guest 01:47:01

Then you can pray through and get counsel from your husband, get counsel from the church of what to do and what kind of help to get.

Guest 01:47:07

But most, most anxiety is in the area of sin, and Jesus speaks directly to it and just says, don't be anxious.

Jared Sparks 01:47:16

Can I push on this for just a second?

Guest 01:47:18

Absolutely.

Guest 01:47:19

Go for it.

Jared Sparks 01:47:19

Okay.

Jared Sparks 01:47:20

So I encounter the same subject in a bunch of different ways in the work that I do.

Jared Sparks 01:47:25

And when it comes to calling women to repentance for their sin, which leads to anxiety, the response that I get from many men, from many women and men is, well, it's just her father failed her somehow.

Jared Sparks 01:47:38

As if to blunt, as if that changes something, like, okay, yes, I understand.

Jared Sparks 01:47:42

Perhaps her father failed her in all kinds of ways that fathers do.

Jared Sparks 01:47:45

But the fact that your father failed you is not an excuse for the anxiety and the sin for itself.

Jared Sparks 01:47:52

Do you encounter this?

Jared Sparks 01:47:53

I deal with this all the time.

Jared Sparks 01:47:54

And yesterday, it was a whole big part of my day yesterday.

Jared Sparks 01:47:57

It can be very frustrating to deal with both of these things being true, equally true at the same time.

Guest 01:48:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Guest 01:48:04

And this is something that you have spoken to before.

Guest 01:48:05

There is an expectation, a societal expectation, that men take ownership and responsibility over everything they can possibly take responsibility and ownership for if they try to cast the blame.

Guest 01:48:15

And certainly there are people that do that.

Guest 01:48:18

But with ladies, there's always an excuse, or there's always a reason why.

Guest 01:48:22

There's never just the take responsibility, posture, attitude.

Guest 01:48:26

And certainly the woman is a weaker vessel, and you have to speak to her in that manner.

Guest 01:48:31

There has to be a kindness and a gentleness when it comes to speaking, but that doesn't mean kindness and gentleness, doesn't mean being indirect with ladies or with women.

Guest 01:48:39

And so I think there is a humble directness that's required.

Guest 01:48:43

And this is what Jesus does, because when he says, don't be anxious, he's speaking to men and women.

Guest 01:48:48

There are certain things in the scriptures that are commands to men and only men, and then there are certain commands that are to women and only women.

Guest 01:48:55

And then there's a whole lot of commands that are just to mankind as a whole.

Guest 01:48:59

And that would be in the category of Jesus speaking to disciples and the broader listening crowd.

Guest 01:49:04

Do not be anxious or fear not.

Guest 01:49:06

Do not be afraid.

Guest 01:49:08

And ladies are to be like Sarah and not fear anything that's frightening.

Guest 01:49:11

And I think that that would be.

Guest 01:49:13

If a woman could just imagine that, what would be.

Guest 01:49:15

What would my life be like without anxiety and fear?

Guest 01:49:19

I think she would.

Guest 01:49:19

And for the guys that deal with that, they'd be like, oh, my gosh, this would be.

Guest 01:49:24

I don't know what I mean.

Guest 01:49:25

I would just.

Guest 01:49:26

It would be amazing.

Guest 01:49:27

And so maybe, just maybe, you can say, okay, maybe there's outside forces.

Guest 01:49:32

Maybe my dad was a bad dad.

Guest 01:49:34

But maybe I just need to consider today that.

Guest 01:49:36

I need to push pause and say, God, I'm sorry for being so fearful, and I'm.

Guest 01:49:42

I'm repenting to you for my anxiety, and.

Guest 01:49:45

And then I'm going to come back to you in about 15 minutes, and I'm going to do the same thing when it comes back.

Guest 01:49:50

And you take that seriously as.

Guest 01:49:53

As.

Guest 01:49:54

As serious as it is.

Guest 01:49:56

And then slowly, like with any particular sin, you look back over time, and you might not feel that there's progress in a week, and there might be regress in a week.

Guest 01:50:05

But over time, people who used to struggle with worry, anxieties, and fears to a paralyzing degree.

Guest 01:50:12

There are people in your church right now who can say, look what God's done.

Guest 01:50:16

They've come a long way, and they're able to say, you know what?

Guest 01:50:19

Like, if I could go back and counsel myself ten years ago, I would just say, chill out, trust the Lord, and you can be that person, too.

Guest 01:50:25

And it just starts with one day at a time.

Jared Sparks 01:50:28

Yeah.

Jared Sparks 01:50:28

One of the things I haven't spoken about much on the podcast is, up until a few months ago, I struggled with insomnia, and it got really bad about a year ago.

Jared Sparks 01:50:37

For about six months, just real anxiety popping up in the middle of the night.

Jared Sparks 01:50:40

I wake up in the middle of the night anxious, and I didn't know what to do about that.

Jared Sparks 01:50:44

The only framework that I had in my mind was a psychological one.

Jared Sparks 01:50:47

And so having come from years of psychotherapy and all that stuff, I knew that I couldn't go back to that.

Jared Sparks 01:50:53

So I didn't know, like, what do I do with this?

Jared Sparks 01:50:55

What's actually going on?

Jared Sparks 01:50:56

I was actually talking to a biblical counselor that helped me understand exactly what you're saying, that behind this, there's a sin issue in here.

Jared Sparks 01:51:02

You have to bring it to God, and you, you can do that.

Jared Sparks 01:51:04

I'm like, oh, I can do that.

Jared Sparks 01:51:05

And so that, I mean, it's not unusual that I wouldn't know that, but it seems like that's something that a lot of pastors don't know how to counsel people in the, in the rush to psychologize things and medicate it, perhaps, or actually treat it with secular kind of means versus like, no, there's a sin issue in here.

Jared Sparks 01:51:22

There is a not trusting God issue in here, that we do have to bring it before the Lord.

Jared Sparks 01:51:26

And that's the true healing.

Guest 01:51:28

Yeah.

Guest 01:51:29

Yes, yes.

Guest 01:51:30

And amen.

Guest 01:51:30

Most pastoral counselor counseling these days, right now, christian psychology has taken over the pastorate instead of biblical counseling.

Guest 01:51:38

And I think, you know, the difference in the distinction there.

Guest 01:51:39

But biblical counseling is the way, there's caricatures of it.

Guest 01:51:42

And if you don't recognize physiological issues that are going on in the human body ever, well, then that's a problem, too.

Guest 01:51:48

But biblical counseling is the way and many of our ills that we're facing today, because the body and soul, we are not just material.

Guest 01:51:56

We're not just spiritual.

Guest 01:51:58

There are things that are connected in ways that we don't yet understand and maybe probably never will.

Guest 01:52:03

But repentance is the way in all of life, every day.

Guest 01:52:07

That's what all the christian life is, is what Martin Luther said.

Guest 01:52:09

And so, you know, pray, trust the Lord, and watch God work.

Jared Sparks 01:52:14

Amen.

Jared Sparks 01:52:15

Amen.

Jared Sparks 01:52:15

Well, thank you so much, brother.

Jared Sparks 01:52:16

This has been of great encouragement to me.

Jared Sparks 01:52:19

I'm so happy to hear you talking about these issues.

Jared Sparks 01:52:23

And with the clarity and concise speech that you're using, it's a great encouragement to know that there are men that are speaking into these issues for both men and women today.

Guest 01:52:33

Amen, thanks so much.

Guest 01:52:34

And keep doing what you're doing, man.

Guest 01:52:35

You're doing a great job and God's using you and blessing your work.

Guest 01:52:38

So keep it up.

Guest 01:52:39

Trust the Lord.

Guest 01:52:40

It's awesome stuff.

Jared Sparks 01:52:41

Amen.

Jared Sparks 01:52:41

Thank you, brother.

Jared Sparks 01:52:42

And where would you like to send people to find out more about what you and your wife also do.

Guest 01:52:46

Yeah, Shepherdskrook dot co for the website.

Guest 01:52:49

Just look Shepherd's crook or my name.

Guest 01:52:50

You can find the podcast on any kind of podcast platform and then fruitful and fearless for Jordan and her show.

Guest 01:52:57

She does a great job.

Guest 01:52:57

And then also the Sons and Slaves podcast is me and my sons working through this book boyhood and beyond.

Guest 01:53:04

And I just talked chapter by chapter with my boys ransom and valor.

Guest 01:53:07

Now Oak is not old enough yet but were going chapter by chapter through this.

Guest 01:53:11

Were in 20 episode 23 or 24.

Guest 01:53:12

Weve been doing this for about a year and a half so we dont get, we need to be more regular on that.

Guest 01:53:17

But thats me and my nine year old son and my six year old son having a blast and its a lot of fun.

Guest 01:53:21

So thats called the sons and Slaves podcast.

Guest 01:53:24

So we have that going on as well.

Jared Sparks 01:53:25

And all those will be linked to the show.

Jared Sparks 01:53:27

Notes that sounds amazing that I would like to listen to.

Guest 01:53:30

It's fun.

Guest 01:53:31

It's a lot of fun.

Guest 01:53:31

It's my favorite thing to do.

Jared Sparks 01:53:33

Excellent.

Jared Sparks 01:53:33

Well, I look forward to checking that out.

Jared Sparks 01:53:34

Thank you so much.

Guest 01:53:36

Thank you.

Guest 01:53:37

Will appreciate it.

Jared Sparks 01:53:38

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Renaissance of Men podcast.

Jared Sparks 01:53:44

Visit us on the web@renofmen.com or on your favorite social media platform at Ren of men.

Jared Sparks 01:53:53

This is the renaissance of men.

Jared Sparks 01:53:57

You are the Renaissance.