Will Spencer 00:00:18

My name is Will Spencer and you're listening to one of the last episodes.

Speaker B 00:00:22

Of the Renaissance of Men podcast.

Will Spencer 00:00:24

This is an all new interview and the clock is ticking down to when.

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This show will become the Will Spencer podcast.

Will Spencer 00:00:30

For a sneak preview of what's to come, I strongly recommend my audio listeners click over to YouTube to check out.

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My brand new studio as well.

Speaker B 00:00:38

I gotta say, I'm pretty stoked.

Will Spencer 00:00:40

My guest this week is a christian.

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Missionary to the former Soviet Union and the author of Nazi Ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the judeo christian worldview in the Holocaust.

Speaker B 00:00:51

Please welcome Doctor Mark Musser.

Speaker B 00:00:54

You are the renaissance.

Will Spencer 00:00:59

Before I begin, this monologue will be substantially longer than any episode I've done before, more than 40 minutes and identical on both audio and video.

Will Spencer 00:01:09

The subject matter is highly charged and yet very important.

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I ask you to please listen carefully, to suspend judgment, and to take seriously the instructions that I provide.

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Later, if they apply to you again, please listen to what I have to say.

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This is all setting the stage for the interview.

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With that in mind, let's begin.

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We today live in the shadow of the Holocaust.

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It is the singular historical event that defines our modern western world, including global politics, culture, economics, and much more.

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The Holocaust is also the root of the postwar consensus, whose chief message about the first half of the 20th century was never again, as in the horrors of the 19 hundreds through the 1940s, could never be repeated.

Will Spencer 00:01:59

No effort would be spared worldwide to prevent it.

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And though a great deal happened during those decades, the signature event that could not, must not be repeated was not war, famine or depression, but genocide in the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:02:15

If you are wondering why America is involved in the Middle east and sends billions of dollars in military and other aid to Israel, the reasoning can be traced back to the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:02:25

If youre wondering why its impossible to notice jewish influence, good or bad, on any part of american and western society, the reasoning can also be traced back to the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:02:36

If you're wondering why you as a man are not taught to stand up straight and be proud of your masculinity, ethnicity or nation, it's because after being called a racist and a sexist, you'll be called a Nazi.

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Why does that matter?

Will Spencer 00:02:49

Because of the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:02:51

That's right.

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You as a man cannot be proud of your masculinity because in part, masculinity leads to the Holocaust and the Holocaust can never be allowed to happen again.

Will Spencer 00:03:00

So masculinity cannot be allowed to happen again.

Will Spencer 00:03:03

In case you disagree with that, in the massively influential 1963 feminist classic the feminine mystique Betty Friedan used the Holocaust specifically as a metaphor to attack the family.

Will Spencer 00:03:15

She titled chapter twelve of her book progressive the Comfortable concentration camp.

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In it, she wrote, the women who adjust as housewives who grow up wanting to be just a housewife are in as much danger as the millions who walk to their own death in the concentration camps.

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We see a similar dynamic play out today on the news and in social media.

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Even Jordan Peterson, the skinny, mild mannered canadian professor, was attacked using this reasoning way back in 2017.

Will Spencer 00:03:47

The full logic goes like traditional masculinity, including the family and the household, means fascism, fascism means Nazism.

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Nazism means the Holocaust.

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And the Holocaust can never be allowed to happen again.

Will Spencer 00:04:01

So traditional masculinity cannot be allowed to happen again.

Will Spencer 00:04:05

It's more complicated than this in many ways, of course, but often to the liberal media, it is that simple.

Will Spencer 00:04:11

So perhaps in this you can see that to some extent, the Holocaust also defines our political dialogue.

Will Spencer 00:04:17

To be on the political left is by definition, to accept that the Holocaust happened exactly as the mainstream narrative, including Hollywood said it did, including the motivations of the Nazis.

Will Spencer 00:04:27

And more and increasingly, to be on the political right means either questioning the Holocaust narrative or doubting that the Holocaust happened at all.

Will Spencer 00:04:36

Thus, even our politics uses the perspective on this event as a shibboleth to determine which side youre on.

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If youre on the left, you must accept it as is.

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If youre at many points on the right, you must doubt it.

Will Spencer 00:04:49

I think this is insane, but it is what it is.

Will Spencer 00:04:53

Now, as youve heard me say many times, I grew up jewish.

Will Spencer 00:04:56

Both of my grandfathers were american jewish men who served during World War Two.

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My grandfather David, on my moms side was us army, airborne behind enemy lines in Germany.

Will Spencer 00:05:07

My grandfather Martin on my dads side was a us army engineer stateside.

Will Spencer 00:05:12

My aunt, one of my mothers sisters, married my uncle, whose parents escaped Germany during World War Two.

Will Spencer 00:05:18

And though my uncle has now passed away, I heard him say once that he lost extended family members in the Holocaust, which is one of many reasons why he was an avowed atheist.

Will Spencer 00:05:28

And in the jewish community, my uncle was far from alone.

Will Spencer 00:05:31

So this historical event loomed large in my upbringing and family, too.

Will Spencer 00:05:36

Thus, if I understand the rules of the woke game, my jewish upbringing gives me the right to both investigate and talk about this.

Will Spencer 00:05:44

Now, I regard those rules as a bogus form of ethnic gnosticism, to borrow vodibakums, excellent phrase.

Will Spencer 00:05:50

But nonetheless, for those who want to play by them, there it is.

Will Spencer 00:05:53

And if you want me to prove my jewish bona fides.

Will Spencer 00:05:56

You can listen to an audio recording of 13 year old me singing the ten Commandments in Hebrew at my bar mitzvah.

Will Spencer 00:06:03

Or we can do things the easy way, and you can take my word for it.

Will Spencer 00:06:06

So with that in mind, there are three essential questions related to the Holocaust that I'd like to now address.

Will Spencer 00:06:12

First, what happened?

Will Spencer 00:06:14

Second, why did it happen?

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Third, what are we supposed to do about it?

Will Spencer 00:06:19

Of course, I'm also aware that there's a preliminary fourth question lurking around these three, and that question is, did it happen at all?

Will Spencer 00:06:27

Now, I've been on the Internet a long time.

Will Spencer 00:06:30

I got my 1st 2400 baud modem when I was 13 years old.

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For those who dont know what a 2400 baud modem is, it was a stone age version of connecting to the Internet via the phone lines.

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As in no one else could use the household phone while you were on the Internet.

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And long before cell phones, everyone in the home, mom, dad and kids shared one line.

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It was a simpler time.

Will Spencer 00:06:51

A 2400 Baud modem transmitted data at 2400 bits per second for reference how far weve come since then.

Will Spencer 00:06:59

My gigabit Ethernet connection right now transmits 1 billion bits per second, and it does so through the air for ten years.

Will Spencer 00:07:06

I also navigated through what I called the deep new age.

Will Spencer 00:07:10

This is the world beneath crystals, astrology, yoga, ayahuasca and all that.

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Those are the what the deep new age asks why so?

Will Spencer 00:07:18

Ive investigated every conspiracy from Anunnaki to Tartaria Mkultra to Qanon, Zeta reticuli, reptilians 440 versus 432 hz music, the USS Liberty, the Council on Foreign Relations, holonomic consciousness, the alien bases on the far side of the hollow moon, vertigo, politics, videos, and much more.

Will Spencer 00:07:40

Naturally, I have also come across the question of Holocaust revisionism and denial, as I know many of my listeners today have as well.

Will Spencer 00:07:48

In fact, due to widespread anger at and hatred of the Jews that is now allowed to propagate across Elon Twitter, it has become fashionable in certain sectors of the right today to challenge the historicity of the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:08:01

I saw at least one meme about it just today while I was writing this.

Will Spencer 00:08:05

This questioning is not new.

Will Spencer 00:08:07

Holocaust denial and revisionism have been around in various forms since the 1950s, and you can't use the Internet as long as I have and navigate through the worlds that I have without encountering it.

Will Spencer 00:08:18

Now, as far as I can tell, this is another way the holocaust is unique.

Will Spencer 00:08:21

It is one of only three events that I can think of where people openly challenge whether it happened or not.

Will Spencer 00:08:28

Another one is the moon landing, and the third is the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Will Spencer 00:08:34

Naturally, the moon landing is not quite like the other two in terms of its moral significance.

Will Spencer 00:08:39

But those are the only three events that I can think of where people are allowed, more or less, to doubt whether or not they happened.

Will Spencer 00:08:46

Okay, now this is the part that I need many, if not all, of you to listen to very closely.

Will Spencer 00:08:52

This podcast interview will not make sense to you and will not have the impact it needs to unless you hear what I'm about to say.

Will Spencer 00:08:59

For as long as I've been using the Internet, the following has been my position.

Will Spencer 00:09:03

It is completely fair to doubt whether any of these events have happened in the ways that we're told.

Will Spencer 00:09:08

I have long felt that personally, it's okay, and perhaps even encouraged to doubt any mainstream narrative.

Will Spencer 00:09:14

But the second, I want to take a position on what did happen.

Will Spencer 00:09:18

I am obligated to try and prove myself wrong.

Will Spencer 00:09:21

That completes the process of inquiry, and I believe, is what true intellectual honesty looks like.

Will Spencer 00:09:27

To doubt myself as much as I doubt others, if not more.

Will Spencer 00:09:31

Because if others are proficient at lying to us, we are also quite proficient at lying to ourselves.

Will Spencer 00:09:37

So if I want to say, for example, that the moon landing did not happen, that is, making a claim that can be tested.

Will Spencer 00:09:43

I can seek incontrovertible evidence that it did.

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And I believe that before I make a positive historical claim, I must in good faith search out contradictory evidence.

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If it exists.

Will Spencer 00:09:54

The same is true with Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.

Will Spencer 00:09:57

In fact, that's what the book the case for Christ, Lee Strobel, is about.

Will Spencer 00:10:02

One man, an atheist, sought to prove that Christ didnt exist by questioning the best experts he could find.

Will Spencer 00:10:08

He subjected his thesis to scrutiny, and lo and behold, Stroebel got his mind changed by discovering the truth.

Will Spencer 00:10:15

This reasoning must also apply to the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:10:18

So if you want to claim that the Holocaust did not happen, never existed, was a lie fabricated by the winners of world War Two to defame the memory of the losers, that is a historical claim that can be tested.

Will Spencer 00:10:30

And so I have compiled a list full of evidence to test Holocaust denialism against.

Will Spencer 00:10:35

If you are a listener who doubts the existence of the Holocaust, it is vital that you engage with that evidence before listening to this episode.

Will Spencer 00:10:43

So I've compiled on my substack free for everyone, a collection of resources, including web links, books, Twitter accounts, and videos that rely on historical documents from the Nazis to prove what happened.

Will Spencer 00:10:55

It turns out that Hitler and the National Socialists are the most heavily documented human movement in history.

Will Spencer 00:11:02

In meticulous german style, they wrote down everything and provided mountains of evidence about themselves.

Will Spencer 00:11:07

Whole libraries of books have been written about them, using their own words and records.

Will Spencer 00:11:11

Naturally, I dont expect you to review every single resource unless you want to, and then by all means go ahead and master the material.

Will Spencer 00:11:18

We need more information, soldiers like you.

Will Spencer 00:11:21

But if you only have time for one, then this is what I need you to do.

Will Spencer 00:11:25

At the top of that article ive linked a video discussion on rumble between two men, Brandon Martinez and David Cole.

Will Spencer 00:11:32

Brandon Martinez is a self described ethno nationalist.

Will Spencer 00:11:35

He says on the video that hes quote on team white and repeatedly emphasizes how much he questions jewish power.

Will Spencer 00:11:41

Apparently hes even been banned from Twitter and I have no idea why, but I can probably imagine David Cole is the maker of one of the most infamous Holocaust revision videos of all time, which questioned the existence of the Auschwitz gas chambers back in the early 1990s.

Will Spencer 00:11:56

So he's been at the game longer than many of us have been alive.

Will Spencer 00:12:00

In their two hour discussion, Brandon and David confirm that's right, confirm the historical reality of the Holocaust, debunking common denialist challenges, including about swimming pools, wooden doors, reconstructed camps, math equations, crematoriums, explosive pesticides, plus the claims of Fred Leuchter, David Irving, and more.

Will Spencer 00:12:21

In those 2 hours, they respond in clear speech to every Holocaust denial meme I've ever heard and more, listing men I've never heard of who made anti Holocaust documentaries that I don't know and who then recanted.

Will Spencer 00:12:34

Martinez and Cole also go over the devastating census evidence that the revisionists, deniers, and the mainstream all agree on, and that should make all the case you needed to that the Holocaust happened beyond a reasonable doubt.

Will Spencer 00:12:47

Brandon then spends the last hour after Cole signs off, responding to other questioners and trolls in the live chat, establishing his ethnonationalist credentials.

Will Spencer 00:12:55

So if you think he's Mossad or CIA, whatever, you can take it up with him.

Will Spencer 00:13:00

I am providing this video for information purposes only.

Will Spencer 00:13:03

I am not commending to you either of their work, but whatever differences in worldview or theology I may have with Martinez or Cole, I respect their unwavering commitment to the truth.

Will Spencer 00:13:13

That video is 3 hours long.

Will Spencer 00:13:15

So if you are at all tempted to doubt the existence of the Holocaust, the systematic german execution of Jews and others, stop listening to this podcast now and go listen to Martinez and Cole first.

Will Spencer 00:13:26

Nothing I or my guest have to say will make sense unless you do.

Will Spencer 00:13:30

Ive put the video direct on my substack in case it disappears from rumble.

Will Spencer 00:13:34

All credit to Brandon Martinez.

Will Spencer 00:13:36

As I've mentioned, on the same page with the video you can find a list of several books I've found that also reinforce the historicity of the Holocaust using contemporaneous documents for the record, the first book about the Holocaust, the Final Solution, was written and published in 1953 by Gerald Reitlinger.

Will Spencer 00:13:53

It is more than 600 pages long.

Will Spencer 00:13:55

The definitive history of the National Socialists and Hitler is called the rise and fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer, and it was published in 1961.

Will Spencer 00:14:04

That book is 1300 pages long.

Will Spencer 00:14:06

I also want to mention the book the Hiding Place by Corrie Ten boom.

Will Spencer 00:14:10

This firsthand account was written by a christian woman who evangelized Jews in the Ravensbruck camp.

Will Spencer 00:14:15

The book has 20,000 reviews on Amazon with a five star rating.

Will Spencer 00:14:19

Its apparently legendary in evangelical christian circles now jewish culture is usually good at sharing firsthand Holocaust accounts, but id never heard of the hiding place.

Will Spencer 00:14:28

I asked my dad and neither had he.

Will Spencer 00:14:30

I found that very provocative, so I look forward to reading it.

Will Spencer 00:14:33

On the list youll also find the pink swastika, an account of the heavy influence of homosexuality on the nazi party and hitlers furies about german women who participated in mass murder.

Will Spencer 00:14:44

Ive included several books about the influence of the occult on national socialism, including hitlers monsters, a supernatural history of the Third Reich and Unholy Alliance, a history of nazi involvement with the occult, which features a foreword by none other than the famous author Norman Mailer.

Will Spencer 00:15:00

And just for good measure, on the list youll also find into that darkness a book that tells the story of Fritz Stengel, who was the unrepentant commandant of the death camp Treblinka the good Old Days, an ironically titled collection of personal documents, including photographs, diaries, letters and confidential reports created by participants and observers of the Holocaust and even warrant for genocide, a 300 page book about the origins of the protocols of the elders of Zion.

Will Spencer 00:15:28

These are just a few of the titles I've listed.

Will Spencer 00:15:30

Again, if you want to make historical claims based on more than a couple YouTube videos and memes, it pays to do your research.

Will Spencer 00:15:37

I've included other videos on the page that speak to the character of Hitler and the Nazis, web links to crucial historical documents featured on a very thorough blog called Holocaust Controversies, an excellent Twitter account to follow.

Will Spencer 00:15:50

Hitler hated Christ, who says his DM's are open.

Will Spencer 00:15:52

If you have questions, and much more, you are now charged to undertake this journey of discovery and perhaps unlearning on your own.

Will Spencer 00:16:00

If you refuse to engage with the hard evidence because you are not willing to challenge your biases, your understanding of history, or your ideology, that's on you.

Will Spencer 00:16:09

But for what it's worth, if you listen to this podcast, I think you're more than capable of finding out the truth.

Will Spencer 00:16:14

We'll be here when you get back.

Will Spencer 00:16:16

For the rest of us, I say all this for two reasons.

Will Spencer 00:16:19

First, because again, what my guests and I talk about this week won't make sense unless we can all agree on some historical fundamentals.

Will Spencer 00:16:26

First, I'm making sure we're all on the same page before I approach the subject matter.

Will Spencer 00:16:31

But second, and most importantly, I desperately want my civilization to no longer live in the shadow of the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:16:38

There is one and only one event in all of history we should be living in view of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Will Spencer 00:16:45

But that doesn't cast a shadow, rather a light.

Will Spencer 00:16:48

And for whatever reason, our civilization today cannot or will not see that light, in part because we're still standing in the Holocaust shadow.

Will Spencer 00:16:55

It actually requires quite a bit of force to hold us there.

Will Spencer 00:16:58

And my hope is that this episode will help change that, moving us all forward into a future defined by the light of the empty tomb in 33 ADHD rather than the darkness of Germany in the 1940s.

Will Spencer 00:17:10

To me, that is what it means to hold a true biblical worldview and would represent genuine civilizational progress at this moment in history.

Will Spencer 00:17:18

But I know it won't happen without a fight.

Will Spencer 00:17:21

Okay, let's return to the original three questions about the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:17:25

What happened?

Will Spencer 00:17:26

Why did it happen, and what are we supposed to do about it?

Will Spencer 00:17:29

Because now that I've made the right wing angry, it's time to make the left wing angry, too.

Will Spencer 00:17:33

Culture has provided answers to those three questions that, at least from my upbringing, sound a little bit like this.

Will Spencer 00:17:39

What happened was a once in history, one of a kind sui generis event, where an educated and wealthy european nation, Germany, systematically genocided the Jews and others using ruthless technological precision.

Will Spencer 00:17:51

It happened due to the Germans being racists, hating the Jews for their financial successes and influence, weakening the once proud german race.

Will Spencer 00:17:59

The Holocaust was also the outcome of centuries of unchecked christian pogroms against the Jews, culminating in a sort of megapogram that only a christian nation was capable of due to their desire for revenge against the Jews for the crucifixion of Christ.

Will Spencer 00:18:13

And what we need to do about it is do away with Christianity, masculinity, and nationalism.

Will Spencer 00:18:18

Just for a start and then let the Jews basically do whatever they want, because criticism is no different from mass murder.

Will Spencer 00:18:24

I think that sums it up, right.

Will Spencer 00:18:26

I grew up hearing some version of this narrative, especially that Germany and Hitler were somehow acquainted with Christianity.

Will Spencer 00:18:31

And I know for a fact that that linkage, though never stated, is what keeps many Jews from converting to Christianity.

Will Spencer 00:18:37

If you read the book betrayed by Stan Telchin, who became a christian evangelist after his conversion from Judaism, youll see that same logic reflected in his thought process as well.

Will Spencer 00:18:47

I knew as a kid that I could be anything I wanted, just not christian.

Will Spencer 00:18:51

Why?

Will Spencer 00:18:52

Because Christianity was somehow responsible for the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:18:55

That was and is the common left wing belief within Jews as well, even today.

Will Spencer 00:18:59

But something funny has been happening lately.

Will Spencer 00:19:02

This belief has also been adopted by the right wing, but as a good thing.

Will Spencer 00:19:06

Now I'm grateful for Elon, Twitter and the free speech that he allows.

Will Spencer 00:19:09

And since he took over, jew hatred has gone viral almost up to the mainstream.

Will Spencer 00:19:14

And many on the extreme right have also adopted this narrative that Hitler was a Christian.

Will Spencer 00:19:19

Except even more so because they say, in fact, he was the christian prince.

Will Spencer 00:19:23

An example of christian nationalism.

Will Spencer 00:19:25

It's baffling, especially because if true, that claim legitimizes everything the Jews have thought about christians going back for 80 years.

Will Spencer 00:19:33

If Hitler really was a christian and really was the christian prince, and as the evidence shows, the Holocaust really did happen, then wouldn't Jews be absolutely correct in doing everything they have done since the 1940s?

Will Spencer 00:19:45

Does any group not have the right to defend itself against mass slaughter?

Will Spencer 00:19:48

If Jews dont fight with weapons, are they allowed to fight within institutions which are far more powerful instead?

Will Spencer 00:19:54

I would say so, which is why the claim that Hitler was the christian prince is literally self defeating for christian men, and can only be sustained in an environment where the Holocaust didnt happen.

Will Spencer 00:20:04

But if the evidence from revisionists, ethnonationalists, and other researchers on your team proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the Holocaust did happen, which it absolutely does, if you're brave and intelligent enough to look at it, then only the claim of Hitler, the National Socialists, and Germany being christian remains for us to examine in order to demolish this poisonous idea forever.

Will Spencer 00:20:24

So guess what?

Will Spencer 00:20:25

Hitler wasn't a Christian.

Will Spencer 00:20:27

Neither were the National Socialists, and neither was Germany in the first half of the 20th century.

Will Spencer 00:20:31

In fact, far from it.

Will Spencer 00:20:33

Which brings me to my guest this week.

Will Spencer 00:20:35

His name is Doctor Mark Musser, and he's a husband, father, missionary to the former Soviet Union, where in fact, he is today.

Will Spencer 00:20:41

And the author of one of the most mind changing books I've read over the past year nazi ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the judeo christian worldview, and the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:20:50

Christian researcher and lecturer Carl Tycrib, author of Game of Gods, recommended this book to me towards the end of 2023 and for some unknown reason I felt compelled to read it, which I did this past spring.

Will Spencer 00:21:01

Nazi ecology is a 500 page scholarly work.

Will Spencer 00:21:05

It is dense, written in an academic, no nonsense style with more than 1600 citations and a 15 page bibliography.

Will Spencer 00:21:12

It took Doctor Musser ten years to research and write and frankly its more like a textbook than anything ive read in a long time.

Will Spencer 00:21:19

Its more suited for careful study than casual reading.

Will Spencer 00:21:22

And doctor Mussers book is about one what did Hitler and the National Socialists really believe?

Will Spencer 00:21:28

Because again, the general public has been told, often in not so many words, that Hitler and the National Socialists were associated somehow with Christianity, that they hated the Jews due to racism, that the Holocaust was a work of mechanized, industrialized precision, and that National Socialist Germany was the result of a lethal combination of masculinity, nationalism, and unbridled industrial capitalism fused with an ideology based on ethnic superiority.

Will Spencer 00:21:54

That is more or less the story all of us have heard.

Will Spencer 00:21:57

And as it turns out, almost none of it is true.

Will Spencer 00:22:00

And the bits of that story that are true did not go down at all in the ways that we've been told.

Will Spencer 00:22:04

That is what Doctor Muster's book is about, not merely accepting what history and mass media has said about what the National Socialists believed.

Will Spencer 00:22:12

Instead, he dug into the works of their most influential philosophers, scientists, artists, and their own writings and speeches.

Will Spencer 00:22:19

Doctor Musser charted the intellectual course of Germany from the 17 hundreds right up until the 1940s, and demonstrated how it wasn't Christianity that drove the national socialist worldview.

Will Spencer 00:22:29

Rather, it was the slow decline and erosion of Christianity that allowed it.

Will Spencer 00:22:33

The National Socialists actually embodied beliefs that are hard for us to understand today, using modern left right categories.

Will Spencer 00:22:39

That's why Doctor Muster's book was so mind changing for me.

Will Spencer 00:22:42

The environmental, philosophical, and theological leanings of the minds behind national socialism were clearly on the left, explicitly embracing all is one, all is God, pantheism and monism flavored with occultism, with an emphasis on the value of feelings and a pure hatred for the creation order laid out in the Bible, specifically the dominion mandate in Genesis one.

Will Spencer 00:23:05

And God blessed them, and God said to them, be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moves on the earth, the philosophers who informed the National Socialist worldview hated that perspective on nature in their own words for decades, if not centuries.

Will Spencer 00:23:25

And that is the real reason they hated the Jews, because, as they believed, the Hebrew Bibles perspective on the dominion of nature in Genesis did not align with their naturalistic, pagan perspectives that instead held human beings as just one link in a grand ecological chain.

Will Spencer 00:23:41

This is all documented in detail in doctor Mussers book.

Will Spencer 00:23:44

I invite you to read their words for yourself.

Will Spencer 00:23:47

Thats the Judeo half of the Judeo Christian and doctor Musters subtitle the National Socialists and their progenitors hated the Jews long before the degeneracy of Weimar, as documented in their own words by the composer Wagner, the author Goethe, the philosophers Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant, Heidegger, and Schopenhauer.

Will Spencer 00:24:04

Also Dietrich Eckert, to whom Adolf Hitler dedicated Mein Kampf, Walther Daer, Guido von List, Ernst Haeckel, the Wandervogels, the Artemannens, and many more.

Will Spencer 00:24:14

Direct quotes from all these men and countless others dating well into the 18 hundreds seething with hatred for the Jews over the dominion.

Will Spencer 00:24:21

Mandate specifically can be found on almost every page of Doctor Musser's book.

Will Spencer 00:24:26

For this reason, the National Socialists also hated Christianity because they regarded it as an internationalized version of Judaism and a religion which was alien to the german people, the so called Volk.

Will Spencer 00:24:37

And anyone who spent any time on Twitter today and interacted with a few big anti christian accounts has heard those men say the exact same same thing, because that is what the National Socialists believed, that Christianity was merely internationalized Judaism.

Will Spencer 00:24:52

Anything else the National Socialists may have said in public and in speeches was political posturing, especially because Hitler's coalition was not as stable as it seemed.

Will Spencer 00:25:01

On the book list, I've included a link to Hitler's compromises, coercion, and consensus in Nazi Germany by Nathan Stolfez a 430 page book and Hitler's Cross how the Cross was used to promote the nazi agenda by Erwin Lutzer a 250 page book because much like America today, Germany had its own form of empty cultural Christianity that still demanded lip service be paid to it.

Will Spencer 00:25:24

Instead, it was faithful, bible believing christians who put up the most forceful resistance out of the entire german population, which doctor muster and I talk about in this podcast as well.

Will Spencer 00:25:34

Seen this way, the Holocaust was definitely not something that happened one day for no reason at all, except it didn't originate in the 1930s or even the 1920s or 1910s.

Will Spencer 00:25:44

It was a philosophical, ecological, theological snowball that began gathering speed in the 17 hundreds, and once Germany became increasingly unmoored from its biblical foundations, the Holocaust became a near inevitability once the opportunity presented itself, which happened in the 20th century.

Will Spencer 00:26:01

This is what Doctor Musser has documented in black and white, 500 pages with a 15 page bibliography and scripture verses throughout.

Will Spencer 00:26:09

Its all there for you to read yourself.

Will Spencer 00:26:11

As they say, the truth fears no investigation.

Will Spencer 00:26:14

So if you think youve already got the truth about the National Socialists, youd better get investigating and put your worldview to the test.

Will Spencer 00:26:20

And I might add, if youre still unconvinced that the National Socialists werent christian after hearing this interview and reading doctor Musters book, I recently finished another book called Black sun by Nicholas Goodrich Clark that documents neo nazi movements going back to the 1950s, right up until 2001, when Black sun was written.

Will Spencer 00:26:38

This is another dense scholarly work published by NYU Press, totaling 300 pages.

Will Spencer 00:26:43

It too has hundreds of citations, including to original works in German, which I guess the author knew how to read.

Will Spencer 00:26:49

In Gudrick Clarks book, I challenge you to examine the fruits of neo Nazism in the works and words of men like Lincoln Rockwell, William Pierce, Colin Jordan, Miguel Serrano, William Landig, Varg Vikernes, David Myatt, Joss Turner, and even the man who wrote the 14 words himself, David Lane.

Will Spencer 00:27:07

Somehow all of these men, some of whom worshipped Hitler as a literal incarnation of a God, missed his very obvious christian faith.

Will Spencer 00:27:15

Or maybe it wasn't there to begin with.

Will Spencer 00:27:17

And by the way, Adolf Hitler did not consider himself the savior of the white race.

Will Spencer 00:27:21

One, he'd only look up his treatment and opinion of the Slavs to see the truth of that.

Will Spencer 00:27:25

The National Socialists regarded the Slavs as subhuman, and that is why they invaded eastward, to take slavic lands for lebensraum, or breathing room.

Will Spencer 00:27:33

So for you Hitler fans who are passport bros looking at eastern Europe for a bride, im sorry to tell you, but youre going to have to pick a side.

Will Spencer 00:27:41

The idea that Hitler cared about a pan aryan white race was invented by a greek woman two decades after hitlers death.

Will Spencer 00:27:47

Her name was Maximiani Giulia Portas, but she's better known by her hindu name, Savitri Devi.

Will Spencer 00:27:54

Look it up.

Will Spencer 00:27:55

So now we've covered a lot of ground who Hitler and the National Socialists were and weren't.

Will Spencer 00:27:59

The right wing is probably mad because I challenged their heroic idol and have offered evidence that their historical beliefs are false.

Will Spencer 00:28:06

But this will also make the left wing mad because Hitler is also their idol.

Will Spencer 00:28:10

Only to them, he's not a christian hero, rather a quasi christian villain.

Will Spencer 00:28:14

But as I've said, Hitler and the National Socialists weren't christian at all.

Will Spencer 00:28:18

The Holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity.

Will Spencer 00:28:21

Instead, the Holocaust is what happens when a wealthy, educated, militarily powerful nation abandons Christianity, except a bare bit of lip service to orthodoxy and a shallow husk of orthopraxy.

Will Spencer 00:28:33

So remember my three questions, what happened, why, and what are we supposed to do about it?

Will Spencer 00:28:38

Having read Doctor Musser's book, the following appears to be a far more accurate narrative.

Will Spencer 00:28:43

A radical leftist pagan ideology seized power and used right wing, technological and nationalistic tools to cleanse their precious natural environment of a polluting infestation.

Will Spencer 00:28:55

The Jews.

Will Spencer 00:28:55

It wasnt done with mechanical precision, rather haphazardly, brutally, and savagely, and at the cost of their own war effort.

Will Spencer 00:29:03

Then they tried to erase the evidence of their crimes, particularly the action Reinhardt camps.

Will Spencer 00:29:08

And in the end, the National Socialists were what they said they were, socialists and hyper nationalists, ideologically unable to use the tools of capitalism and trade agreements with a world they considered hostile due to jewish influence.

Will Spencer 00:29:21

Hitler and the National Socialists thus isolated themselves, overreached and crumbled, because they were pagan ideologues, not master tacticians or strategists.

Will Spencer 00:29:31

So while the Holocaust did happen, what actually happened is not what weve been told, nor why the truth is very different and relevant to us today.

Will Spencer 00:29:39

Which is why leftist scholars for decades have been trying to scrub their connections to the nazi regime.

Will Spencer 00:29:44

A sanitation job which is much harder than it seems.

Will Spencer 00:29:47

Especially because the word ecology was coined in 1866 by a german naturalist named Ernst Haeckel, who wrote a letter of congratulations to Charles Darwin on Darwins 70th birthday.

Will Spencer 00:29:59

He said Darwin had, quote, shown man his place in nature and therefore was overthrowing the anthropocentric fable, end quote.

Will Spencer 00:30:07

Thats right.

Will Spencer 00:30:08

The german man who invented the very word ecology and whose 1899 book the Riddle of the Universe outsold the Bible internationally at the time, celebrated Darwins dethroning of man as the center of creation.

Will Spencer 00:30:20

If that perspective sounds familiar today in our age of climate change driven propaganda, it should, because its the same perspective.

Will Spencer 00:30:28

So, as ive said, the left is also invited to read Doctor Mussers book.

Will Spencer 00:30:31

I commend to them especially the section about Hannah Arendt and Martin Heidegger.

Will Spencer 00:30:36

Those star crossed lovers, a jew and a former card carrying Nazi respectively, go a long way towards explaining why we think about Germany the way we do, rather than the truth.

Will Spencer 00:30:46

You might be wondering why this matters, why all the effort will whats going on?

Will Spencer 00:30:50

As I said earlier, I want our civilization to move beyond the shadow of the Holocaust into whatever next phase awaits us living in the light of Christ.

Will Spencer 00:30:58

But the only way we can do that is shining light into the shadow, the light of truth.

Will Spencer 00:31:04

We as a civilization, cannot move beyond the Holocaust unless we understand what happened and why.

Will Spencer 00:31:09

We have been fed lies from both the extreme left and the extreme right, which fracture Hitler and the national Socialists true beliefs into two parts which we need to reassemble to see the truth.

Will Spencer 00:31:21

So here is that truth again.

Will Spencer 00:31:23

The national socialists used right wing tools of nationalism, technology, and corrupted masculinity to enact a left wing agenda of pagan environmentalism, with humanity as supporting characters in a religion of nature worship.

Will Spencer 00:31:37

Now, let me say that again more slowly.

Will Spencer 00:31:39

The National Socialists used right wing tools to enact a left wing agenda.

Will Spencer 00:31:44

They were pagan environmentalists who believed that humanity was just a part of nature, rather than the heads and stewards of it.

Will Spencer 00:31:51

As they say, however, the devil is in the details, because in the realm of humanity, the Germans believed themselves the superior race due to their connection to their superior land, a spiritual doctrine they called blood and soil.

Will Spencer 00:32:04

Think of it this if humans were just part of nature, the best nature would make for the best humans.

Will Spencer 00:32:10

And that's what the Germans believed that they had.

Will Spencer 00:32:12

And that is what actually fueled the social darwinist, genocidal ambitions of the so called master race idolatry.

Will Spencer 00:32:20

Itll get you every time theres a book about it to bring us up to date.

Will Spencer 00:32:23

The extreme left wing has adopted the Nazis pagan environmentalism, and the extreme right wing has adopted the Nazis hypernationalism and twisted masculinity.

Will Spencer 00:32:32

The beliefs of National Socialist Germany have been shattered into two parts that have taken on destructive identities of their own.

Will Spencer 00:32:39

But the synthesis of those beliefs was only made possible in the first place by the removal of the gospel, the spiritual heart of pre national socialist Germany.

Will Spencer 00:32:48

Because when you pull Christ out of a wealthy, educated industrial culture, you get chaos.

Will Spencer 00:32:54

Which is why I believe the historical evidence in Doctor Musser's book shows conclusively we are at a similar risk in America today from both left wing environmental fascism and right wing racial fascism.

Will Spencer 00:33:05

Both are deeply wicked, and both are pointing us towards different holocausts.

Will Spencer 00:33:09

The extreme left wants to eradicate the pollution of human life on earth.

Will Spencer 00:33:13

Humans are a, quote, cancer on the planet.

Will Spencer 00:33:15

As agent Smith in the matrix said, the left really believes that.

Will Spencer 00:33:19

And they got the idea direct from National Socialist Germany.

Will Spencer 00:33:22

We probably have the project paperclip scientists to thank for that and the nazi leadership that established the UN.

Will Spencer 00:33:27

Meanwhile, the extreme right wing increasingly wants to eradicate the Jews from the planet.

Will Spencer 00:33:32

That drumbeat is growing through major influencers like Candace Owens, Kanye west, the Tate brothers, and even Dan Bilzerian, along with the perennial idea that if we just murder the Jews, it will usher in a new era of peace and prosperity.

Will Spencer 00:33:45

Naturally, it doesnt end with the Jews either.

Will Spencer 00:33:47

Do you see?

Will Spencer 00:33:48

Both the left and the right are projecting their millenarian visions of utopia, claiming slaughter as the way to get there.

Will Spencer 00:33:54

In other words, if we just kill the right people, then well have peace now.

Will Spencer 00:33:58

Im not surprised the secular world of left or right would think such things, but that men who call themselves christians would propose the shedding of blood as the way to global redemption or advocating for a culture of death as surely as an abortionist.

Will Spencer 00:34:11

While yes, military conquest, slaughter, and death are featured all throughout the Old Testament, they find no support in the new.

Will Spencer 00:34:19

So if a man wants to live in a shadow, let him live in the long shadow cast by the cross, the paradox of the crucified Lord of glory.

Will Spencer 00:34:27

The cross is the one true crossroads of all history that has a lesson for the extreme left, the extreme right, and all points in between.

Will Spencer 00:34:34

And as with National Socialist Germany in the 1930s and the United States a century later, the gospel is the only way a wealthy, educated, militarily powerful nation blessed with God's word can and should know better.

Will Spencer 00:34:48

In fact, I believe one can even make the case that the current state of Germany is God's judgment for their faithlessness.

Will Spencer 00:34:55

The german intelligentsia, inheritors of Luther and melanchthon, abandoned Christianity for nature worship in the 18 hundreds.

Will Spencer 00:35:02

This allowed for the rise of the abomination of national socialism, which was then put down.

Will Spencer 00:35:07

If you find this hard to believe, consider this quote from George Orwell in his book on the way.

Will Spencer 00:35:13

For 200 years, we had sawed and sawed and sawed at the branch we were sitting on.

Will Spencer 00:35:18

And in the end, much more suddenly than anyone had foreseen.

Will Spencer 00:35:21

Our efforts were rewarded, and down we came.

Will Spencer 00:35:24

But unfortunately, there had been a little mistake.

Will Spencer 00:35:27

The thing at the bottom was not a bed of roses after all.

Will Spencer 00:35:30

It was a cesspool of barbed wire.

Will Spencer 00:35:32

It appears that the amputation of the soul isnt just a simple surgical job, like having your appendix out.

Will Spencer 00:35:38

The wound has a tendency to go septic.

Will Spencer 00:35:41

When do you think he wrote these words?

Will Spencer 00:35:43

1965.

Will Spencer 00:35:44

Maybe even the 1970s.

Will Spencer 00:35:46

Orwell wrote them in 1940, less than a year after Germany had invaded Poland, starting World War two.

Will Spencer 00:35:53

Orwell hadnt yet seen Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Berlin, or Treblinka, and yet it was already obvious to him what had happened in the west.

Will Spencer 00:36:02

We can watch the amputation of Germanys soul and the resulting sepsis.

Will Spencer 00:36:06

If we have the courage to look at doctor mussers evidence and confront the reality of the Holocaust and its causes, we need the light of the empty tomb to shine on the darkness of national Socialist Germany.

Will Spencer 00:36:17

And there we will see Christianitys true enemy, the worship of the creation rather than the creator.

Will Spencer 00:36:24

Then and only then, do I believe we all have a chance to move past this historic crime and tragedy.

Will Spencer 00:36:29

The truth will reveal the wickedness of left and right that I pray the Holy Spirit will guide believers to walk safely between.

Will Spencer 00:36:36

Doctor Muster's evidence is there if you want to see it.

Will Spencer 00:36:39

He is a friendly, accommodating and faithful man possessing a masters in divinity and doctorate in biblical Greek.

Will Spencer 00:36:46

Right now he is doing missionary work in a former soviet state at personal risk to himself and his family.

Will Spencer 00:36:51

He gave a decade to finding out the truth in nazi ecology, which was also endorsed by Doctor Cal Beisner of the Cornwall alliance, who called it a, quote, tour de force.

Will Spencer 00:37:01

And then the book reached me.

Will Spencer 00:37:03

If you're inclined to believe Doctor Musser is just an outlier as well, I've included on the substack five books that support his conclusions.

Will Spencer 00:37:10

First, National Socialism and the religion of nature by Robert Poy.

Will Spencer 00:37:14

That's a rare used book that goes for more than $200 on Amazon, so you better start saving up.

Will Spencer 00:37:20

Second, leftism from Dessad and Marx to Hitler and Marcuse by Erich von Kunout Ledden.

Will Spencer 00:37:26

This is a survey of leftism by a Christian, polymath and world traveler who reads 20 languages and speaks eight of them.

Will Spencer 00:37:33

It's also rare and out of print, with used copies selling for more than $500, but the mises institute has digitized it and made it free to the world in both PDF and kindle on their website.

Will Spencer 00:37:45

I've included that link as well.

Will Spencer 00:37:47

Third, how green were the Nazis?

Will Spencer 00:37:49

Nature, environment, and nation in the Third Reich by Franz Josef Bruegemeier surveys the overlap of environmentalist and nationalist ideologies in National Socialist Germany.

Will Spencer 00:37:59

Fourth, the Green and the Brown, a history of conservation in Nazi Germany by Frank Utaker is, quote, a story of ideological convergence, of tactical alliances, of careerism, of implication in crimes against humanity, and of deceit and denial after 1945, end quote.

Will Spencer 00:38:17

Fifth and finally, black the Holocaust as history and warning by Timothy Snyder, which was a finalist for the UK's 2015 Samuel Johnson Prize for the best nonfiction writing in the english language.

Will Spencer 00:38:30

I meant what I said about the Nazis providing mountains of evidence of their thoughts, words, and actions.

Will Spencer 00:38:35

I hereby charge every man and woman who considers themselves an intellectual to read doctor Muster's book and hopefully others I've listed and decide about National Socialist Germany for yourselves.

Will Spencer 00:38:46

In other words, be part of the reading class, not the meme class.

Will Spencer 00:38:51

Then maybe, just maybe, we can change things in our lifetime.

Will Spencer 00:38:55

Or, God willing, our children's.

Will Spencer 00:38:57

On a personal note, I am no longer jewish because I, as a man raised in that faith and culture, refuse to live in the shadow of the Holocaust.

Will Spencer 00:39:04

I refuse to be a victim of historical events that didn't happen to me.

Will Spencer 00:39:08

I still refuse.

Will Spencer 00:39:10

I will always refuse.

Will Spencer 00:39:11

And so I stood up.

Will Spencer 00:39:12

I challenged my christian brothers and sisters to do the same, to stand in the light, not cower in shadow, bearing aloft the word of God into a desperately fallen world.

Will Spencer 00:39:21

In the name of the way, the truth, and the life.

Will Spencer 00:39:24

Jesus Christ.

Will Spencer 00:39:25

Sharp minds may observe that.

Will Spencer 00:39:27

There's one final question I haven't addressed.

Will Spencer 00:39:29

What are we supposed to do about the reality of the Holocaust?

Will Spencer 00:39:32

In this essay ive already provided an answer to my christian brothers and sisters and to secular listeners as well.

Will Spencer 00:39:39

Id like to now offer my answer to the Jews.

Will Spencer 00:39:41

The following passage was written by doctor Viktor Frankl in his book Mans Search for meaning.

Will Spencer 00:39:46

Frankl was a jewish austrian psychologist who spent three years in four german concentration camps, including Auschwitz.

Will Spencer 00:39:53

I first read these words in 2017, long before I became a Christian.

Will Spencer 00:39:57

May they ring in the ears of those who have used never again as a battle cry against those they have wrongfully deemed their persecutors.

Will Spencer 00:40:05

During the psychological phase of liberation from Auschwitz, one observed that peoples with natures of a more primitive kind could not escape the influences of the brutality which had surrounded them in camp life.

Will Spencer 00:40:17

Now, being free, they thought they could use their freedom licentiously and ruthlessly.

Will Spencer 00:40:22

The only thing that had changed for them was that they were now the oppressors instead of the oppressed.

Will Spencer 00:40:27

They became instigators, not objects of willful force and injustice.

Will Spencer 00:40:31

They justified their behavior by their own terrible experiences.

Will Spencer 00:40:35

This was often revealed in apparently insignificant events.

Will Spencer 00:40:38

A friend was walking across a field with me towards the camp when suddenly we came to a field of green crops.

Will Spencer 00:40:44

Automatically I avoided it, but he drew his arm through mine and dragged me through it.

Will Spencer 00:40:49

I stammered something about not treading down the young crops.

Will Spencer 00:40:52

He became annoyed, gave me an angry look and shouted, you don't say.

Will Spencer 00:40:56

And hasn't enough been taken from us?

Will Spencer 00:40:58

My wife and child have been gassed, not to mention everything else.

Will Spencer 00:41:01

And you would forbid me to tread on a few stalks of oats.

Will Spencer 00:41:04

Only slowly could these men, be guided back to the commonplace truth that no one has the right to do wrong, not even if wrong has been done to them.

Will Spencer 00:41:13

We had to strive to lead them back to this truth, or the consequences would have been much worse than the loss of a few thousand stalks of oats.

Will Spencer 00:41:21

End quote.

Will Spencer 00:41:22

And this, my christian brothers and sisters, is why the Jews need the gospel as well.

Will Spencer 00:41:27

And apparently today, so do many angry young men calling themselves christians.

Will Spencer 00:41:31

But maybe rather than hearing those ideas in the words of a jewish psychologist, they'd rightfully prefer the words of Jesus Christ, who said the following in the Gospel of Luke, chapter six.

Will Spencer 00:41:42

But I say to you who heard, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

Will Spencer 00:41:50

To the one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also.

Will Spencer 00:41:53

And from one who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.

Will Spencer 00:41:57

Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods, do not demand them back.

Will Spencer 00:42:01

And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Will Spencer 00:42:04

If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you?

Will Spencer 00:42:07

For even sinners love those who love them.

Will Spencer 00:42:09

And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you?

Will Spencer 00:42:13

For even sinners do the same.

Will Spencer 00:42:15

And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you?

Will Spencer 00:42:19

Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount.

Will Spencer 00:42:22

But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.

Will Spencer 00:42:26

And your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the most high, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Will Spencer 00:42:33

Be merciful, even as your father is merciful.

Will Spencer 00:42:36

Judge not, and you will not be judged.

Will Spencer 00:42:38

Condemn not, and you will not be condemned.

Will Spencer 00:42:40

Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Will Spencer 00:42:42

Give, and it will be given to you.

Will Spencer 00:42:44

Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over will be put into your lap.

Will Spencer 00:42:48

For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

Will Spencer 00:42:52

End quote.

Will Spencer 00:42:53

Argue with these words all you want, but in them I can find no justification for genocide.

Will Spencer 00:42:59

So I close with a word of pleading to those rageful young christian men and the adults who are around them, listening.

Will Spencer 00:43:05

Please abandon Hitlerism, christian or otherwise, and do it now.

Will Spencer 00:43:10

Hitler wasn't the crucified savior of the white race.

Will Spencer 00:43:13

God judged Germany for its faithlessness and has continued to yes, we were lied to about the Holocaust, but not about the means or the opportunity.

Will Spencer 00:43:21

Rather the motive, which was to extinguish the light of God's created order and worship.

Will Spencer 00:43:26

The divinity of nature instead of God the Father.

Will Spencer 00:43:28

The true story was then covered up to enable the same ends on a global scale.

Will Spencer 00:43:33

Now, if that doesn't sound like socialism, I don't know what does.

Will Spencer 00:43:36

Besides, genocides have been committed in and by the United States, China, Japan, Russia, Australia, Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia, Cambodia, Ukraine, Yugoslavia, and the tribes of South America, North America, and Africa.

Will Spencer 00:43:51

That's a short list.

Will Spencer 00:43:52

Many of these were in the 20th century alone.

Will Spencer 00:43:55

There's no reason why Germany should be any different from the worldwide historical norm just because of their skin color.

Will Spencer 00:44:01

Now, your anger at the state of the west and its future is legitimate.

Will Spencer 00:44:05

I empathize, however, that anger is being fashioned into a political weapon, no different from how young women's anger was fashioned into the weapon of feminism.

Will Spencer 00:44:14

In other words, you are being used if you don't believe me.

Will Spencer 00:44:17

Earlier I recommended the book Black sun by Nicholas Goodrich Clarke about neo nazi movements in the 20th century.

Will Spencer 00:44:23

The first 50 pages are free on Amazon.

Will Spencer 00:44:26

You can read them in a web browser or on your phone.

Will Spencer 00:44:29

In them you will see reflected in the mid 20th century the exact same anxieties about immigration, the family, and the economy that you are feeling today, promoted by shrewd men to manipulate angry men into long forgotten social movements.

Will Spencer 00:44:42

Again, this dates back to the 1950s in the United States, England, and Europe.

Will Spencer 00:44:47

It's not a new game.

Will Spencer 00:44:49

These movements built nothing.

Will Spencer 00:44:50

They only destroyed, including the lives of the men and women who participated.

Will Spencer 00:44:55

Go and read it for yourself.

Will Spencer 00:44:57

The enemies of Christ don't care how they take his people down, whether by the world, the flesh, or the devil.

Will Spencer 00:45:02

Hebrews twelve warns us, strive for peace with everyone and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Will Spencer 00:45:09

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God, that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled.

Will Spencer 00:45:18

End quote.

Will Spencer 00:45:19

Brothers, I urge you to rip that root out.

Will Spencer 00:45:22

And pastors, it is your job to help them, not let them plant roots within you instead.

Will Spencer 00:45:27

Because, as the apostle wrote to the church in Galatia, now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like, of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control.

Will Spencer 00:46:06

Against such, there is no law.

Will Spencer 00:46:08

And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Will Spencer 00:46:12

If we live in the spirit, let us also walk in the spirit.

Will Spencer 00:46:16

Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Will Spencer 00:46:21

Mercy, long suffering, kindness, gentleness, loving your enemies and blessing.

Will Spencer 00:46:27

Those who curse you aren't cool or based, but they are christian.

Will Spencer 00:46:31

God's thoughts are not our thoughts.

Will Spencer 00:46:33

His ways are not our ways, no matter what time it is.

Will Spencer 00:46:36

And if pastors aren't tempering young men's sinful flesh with saving and regenerating faith, the peace of God that passes understanding, then they are failing in their calling.

Will Spencer 00:46:46

Instead, they're trying to be men's friends.

Will Spencer 00:46:48

They're cool buddies rather than their spiritual fathers.

Will Spencer 00:46:51

But last I checked, we don't have a crisis of friendship hunger.

Will Spencer 00:46:54

We have a generational crisis of father hunger, a father famine.

Will Spencer 00:46:58

Actually, orphan sons are asking for bread and fish, and instead they're handed serpents and stones.

Will Spencer 00:47:04

This is not leadership.

Will Spencer 00:47:05

It's a mistake.

Will Spencer 00:47:07

I'll conclude with this.

Will Spencer 00:47:08

I can hear many men asking, but will, what about jewish influence?

Will Spencer 00:47:12

I grant the point that jews do occupy an outsized number of positions of power and influence relative to their population size.

Will Spencer 00:47:19

Obviously.

Will Spencer 00:47:20

But here's one thing.

Will Spencer 00:47:21

No one ever says that they're incompetent, because it's not true.

Will Spencer 00:47:25

Jews may not be hyper moral from biblical foundations, and in many cases, yes, their morality is explicitly anti biblical, but they are hyper competent.

Will Spencer 00:47:34

In fact, Jews, like indian, chinese, and korean immigrants, have family driven cultures of elite level competency.

Will Spencer 00:47:40

Meanwhile, Anglo Protestants in America have developed a tragic anti intellectual tradition.

Will Spencer 00:47:45

In 1945, how many positions of elite power were held by faithful Anglo Protestants?

Will Spencer 00:47:51

Compare that with today.

Will Spencer 00:47:52

It's been just 80 years.

Will Spencer 00:47:53

What happened?

Will Spencer 00:47:54

Protestantism gave up.

Will Spencer 00:47:56

Why?

Will Spencer 00:47:56

And how that happened is a much longer conversation.

Will Spencer 00:47:58

But if you ask me, I think it relates to the forbidden fruit of sexual liberation.

Will Spencer 00:48:03

Meanwhile, it is my sincere hope that once my fellow christian men are done noticing jewish influence, they'll also also notice the low expectations placed on them by their fathers and the low expectations they place on their own sons and daughters, and perhaps even themselves.

Will Spencer 00:48:18

When I was growing up, I didn't go camping, hunt, or do anything outdoors.

Will Spencer 00:48:22

My dad worked on his career and I on schoolwork.

Will Spencer 00:48:25

As a result, I was in honors trigonometry.

Will Spencer 00:48:28

As a high school freshman, I received an 800 on my verbal SAT score and got into Stanford University, praise God, which my dad was able to fund for me without taking on student debt, a kingly gift I honor him for regularly.

Will Spencer 00:48:40

While christian families are enjoying the great blessing of hospitality on weekends, children of immigrant families are taking a second or third language, mastering chess or playing an instrument.

Will Spencer 00:48:50

While white american college students are partying and fornicating to rap music in universities or sent overseas on mission trips, immigrant kids are in the lab.

Will Spencer 00:48:58

Children who perform at elite levels pay high costs in terms of time socializing.

Will Spencer 00:49:03

It's expensive for parents and kids too.

Will Spencer 00:49:05

It was for me.

Will Spencer 00:49:07

But christian parents are aspirational parents thinking about future generations.

Will Spencer 00:49:11

If you want your sons to lead an advanced technological society, you have to train their minds.

Will Spencer 00:49:16

That is just as hard as training the body and just as painful, especially to succeed in hyper competitive white collar professions.

Will Spencer 00:49:23

So I encourage my christian brothers and sisters to think about how they can start combining elite level biblical morality with elite level professional competency, initiating a multigenerational project to win their country and culture back via the meritocracy they claim to value, all to the glory of God our father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Will Spencer 00:49:44

If you enjoy this podcast, thank you.

Will Spencer 00:49:47

Please like this episode, share it, and subscribe.

Will Spencer 00:49:50

If this is your first time here, you've picked an auspicious occasion.

Will Spencer 00:49:53

Welcome.

Will Spencer 00:49:54

I release new episodes about the christian counterculture, masculinity, and the family every week.

Will Spencer 00:49:59

And please welcome this week's guests on the podcast, a husband father, missionary to the former Soviet Union, and the author of Nazi Ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the Judeo christian worldview and the Holocaust, Doctor Mark Musser.

Speaker B 00:50:16

Doctor Musser, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:50:19

Well, thank you for having me.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:50:21

It's a pleasure.

Speaker B 00:50:23

So earlier this year I checked out your book, Nazi Ecology, the Oak Sacrifice of the Judeo christian worldview and the Holocaust.

Speaker B 00:50:30

And as you can see, I flipped through it.

Speaker B 00:50:32

I did quite a lot of reading and note taking.

Speaker B 00:50:34

This was a real eye opening book for me, probably one of the most formative I've read in the past number of years and to help understand who the Nazis were and what they were really about.

Speaker B 00:50:45

So I really appreciate, I can't even imagine the amount of effort that went into producing something like this.

Speaker B 00:50:49

So thank you so much for writing this book.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:50:52

Well, it took a number of years to get that thing finally solidified, so it's, you're looking at ten years worth of research.

Speaker B 00:51:01

Oh, wow.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:02

And, yeah, and then to write the book, you know, I don't have like a whole bunch of editors to help me and you know, all.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:11

And then no one's going to want to publish that book because we, I finally did.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:15

But in the sense of it's going to be very hard for a publisher to want to publish it, even though they recognize the, if someone's honest, you know, they're going to recognize how critical and important it is.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:27

I mean, it's a, you know, it's a difficult, a difficult topic because there's so much propaganda on.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:33

What are the Nazis?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:36

You know, a lot of people know about communism and this and that and the other, but what are the doctrines of national Socialism?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:41

There's nothing.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:42

People know hardly anything about what their worldview was.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:46

All they know is that, oh, they were white racists and that's it.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:49

I, and it's a very superficial view of national socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:53

And I call it national socialism, okay, because that's what it was.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:51:56

It was a combination of nationalism and socialism working together.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:00

It's a different kind of socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:02

And it's also a very, therefore, because of its socialistic character, it's a very complex movement and probably one of the most complex movements that we have seen in a long, long time.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:14

And for people to simplify the nazi movement, national socialism is actually very, it exemplifies a very foolish, very unhistorical understanding of how it was that something like that movement took over supposedly the most educated country of Europe at that time.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:33

And if you just sit there, hitler's a madman, he takes over the country and he is super racist.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:40

Well, how do you explain, why was it that he was so popular?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:44

And how was it that he was able to do these things?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:47

It wasn't just himself.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:48

I mean, you have to have the whole, all kinds of other people along with him to bring that about.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:52:54

And also the academics played a role, a big role in helping him come to power and even help them afterwards.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:00

And the repentance after the war was not all that great.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:02

They just quit talking about it.

Speaker B 00:53:05

So going back to the beginning, what inspired you to write this book?

Speaker B 00:53:10

You said it was a decade long journey.

Speaker B 00:53:12

And I was wondering, as I'm reading this book, like, there's a 15 page bibliography.

Speaker B 00:53:17

I mean, I can't even, it's like 1602 thousand footnotes, 1700 footnotes.

Speaker B 00:53:24

I mean, I was reading through this.

Speaker B 00:53:26

Just the magnitude of it impressed me.

Speaker B 00:53:28

It makes sense that it would take a decade.

Speaker B 00:53:30

So what was it way back when that inspired you to write it?

Speaker B 00:53:34

And what was it that you're like?

Speaker B 00:53:35

I have to stick with it because ten years is a long journey.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:38

Well, first of all, if you're going to write a book like that it better be good, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:43

Because people will.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:47

They're going to say, that's not academic, all this kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:50

So I've made it a very academic book.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:53

It's a very difficult read, especially the first.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:53:55

The first part of it is very difficult because it deals with the philosophies that underlie national socialism, but also the modern green movement.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:03

And they are connected.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:05

And so that is a hard topic.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:08

Well, once you get through the foundation, you understand that philosophy of it all, the nature philosophy, the natural man, you know, those types of things.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:16

Then this will.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:17

After that, it's just a history lesson.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:19

But in order to understand how it was that those things came about, you have to provide, you know, thinking, a framework to understand what's going on.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:28

And a lot of this, you know, this movement probably, you know, for me, I should say, for me to write this book, you know, I grew up a young guy in the seventies, you know, listening to John Denver, you know, and listened to all the environmental discussions as a kid and took it serious.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:45

I used to criticize my grandfather for cutting down too many trees on the farm because he wanted to, you know, burn a warm home.

Will Spencer 00:54:53

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:54

Okay.

Speaker B 00:54:55

Because I listen to people, right.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:56

I'm listening to the school too much, you know.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:57

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:54:58

Well, anyway, then I become a christian man.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:04

Interesting.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:04

The lutheran church high school.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:08

Probably at the confirmation, the first time, actually, I heard the gospel justification by faith, which taught to me.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:15

And I understood the cross was a bridge between man and God.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:19

So I become a believer.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:20

And then I went to Evergreen State College after high school.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:25

And the Evergreen State College is like the Berkeley of Washington state, very liberal.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:31

And in those days, all the stuff that you hear today, okay, in our colleges was being taught at that school.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:38

And I went there because it was local, very close and very affordable.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:41

But any left wing.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:43

Cause they were emphasizing teaching.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:46

And so I heard it all.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:47

I mean, my first year it was, you know, for example, political ecology.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:54

We studied it for two whole semesters.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:57

And there they integrate all the.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:58

All the credits.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:55:59

If you look at carefully, what they're doing is it's like a monastery school for adults, you know, every state college.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:07

So all the credits are put into one class.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:11

Then they divide it out, you know, you know, for whatever is according to what you're teaching, what you're learning.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:17

So I took political ecology for two semesters, 32 credits.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:20

And they divided up biology, that kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:23

Evolution, environmental history, reading, writing.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:27

You do lots of reading writing.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:28

So one of the things that they really emphasize, it really surprised me as I go into this school and I'm being hit with this stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:35

They were blaming the christians for the environmental catastrophe that our world is supposedly in now.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:42

And they went after the book of Genesis in particular, where Adam is made in God's image.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:47

He's above nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:48

He doesn't commune with nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:51

He is commanded to rule over nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:54

And this is what has led to a dominating, man centered view over nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:56:59

So they criticized Christianity in particular for this type of view, worldview that has led to this ecological problem we have everywhere.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:11

And then also, you know, you would read like, for example, Jesus, you know, he hates wolves, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:17

And he's going to protect the sheep.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:19

You know, things like this.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:21

And this went on and on.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:23

I mean, they were very critical of Christianity because of its anti nature tendencies.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:28

So, you know, I just, I didn't know what to do with it, really.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:31

I mean, I, I was kind of taken off guard by it.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:35

A young Christian Mandev.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:37

I knew something wasn't right, but I didn't know it was.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:40

I kind of put it on the show, you know, and it's, it's up there.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:43

And then, you know, I graduated from the college.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:46

My second year actually was a good year.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:48

I took classical world all year long.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:50

It was all about the classical world from early greeks to early Christianity.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:55

But I was taught by jesuit priests.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:57:56

And so he was liberal, but still pretty fair guy.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:01

But it was excellent.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:02

Course, I learned a lot about the classical times.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:04

And then after that is when I got into political stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:07

So you had like basically marxism, socialism for two semesters.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:12

And in the last year, the last semester was race, class and gender.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:15

So all the stuff now that's taking over our country.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:18

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:18

I mean, we were studying.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:20

Everybody laughed at it back then, you know, I mean, my uncle, for example, Barbara, you know, he.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:27

I got free haircuts for years, but he's, he's now, he's no longer with us these days, but he's passed on to be with the Lord.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:37

But when he was younger, he was kind of a little ornery on occasion, especially when you're doing business.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:41

And he used to whistle at the people walking by as he was cutting hair.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:48

But that was back in the eighties.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:51

And now, of course, you can't do that anymore.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:54

And now it's the other way around.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:55

But it's even worse.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:56

I mean, you're, it's not being whistled at.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:58:58

You're being basically, you know, being forced to accept a worldview that's not true.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:05

But anyway, so that kind of stuff was very popular then.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:09

My last year, the last part of the evergreen time was how to be a bureaucrat.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:14

So management in the public interest.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:16

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:17

So I mean, it's all connected.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:18

I mean, you know, this, these political worldviews that, you know, I studied, and then you become a bureaucrat.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:23

And a lot of evergreen students, by the way, went to Washington, DC.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:27

And they're in our bureaucracies today and they're unionized today against our taxpayers, which is bad thing.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:33

And it's not just them as many others like them.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:36

But then my very last semester, I decided I was in Buddha seminary.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:39

And so I took a course called liberation theology.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:42

So all the stuff, you know, we got, I guess.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:44

So here's the christian Marxism, socialism, fascism, whatever you want to call it a.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:49

So I studied it.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:49

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:50

So, I mean, so that's my background there.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:52

Free state college.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:53

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:53

And so then I go to seminary after that.

Doctor Mark Musser 00:59:56

And then we, then we go to the mission field, the former Soviet Union.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:01

And so I went to Belarus for a year, 95, 96.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:05

And then we, after that, we continued to do ministry work, really off and on in the former Soviet Union ever since that time.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:13

And then we also started a church in Olympia, Washington.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:16

But to start a church is hard, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:18

So we, you know, you gotta work.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:22

So I worked at the building Industry association of Washington.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:26

And my job at that time, working part time, part time pastor, you know, part time building industry association, man, they needed someone to get on top of the stormwater rules that were starting to be implemented in Washington state.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:43

So it took me about two years to under.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:46

I mean, I got a master's degree back then.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:49

Today I have a doctorate.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:50

But back then, it took me two to three years to figure out what was it they're trying to do.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:56

And so I got on top of those rules.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:00:59

So I had to be involved with education, helping all of our builders in the state of Washington get ready to do these new rules that were demanded of them on the job side.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:08

And then secondly, my job was to complain about those rules, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:13

And because I became like a little lobbyist of sorts, just writing articles, okay, for the building industry, you know, their monthly newsletter.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:22

So in my studies of, you know, how to look at what's going on underneath, you know, just the mirror laws.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:27

I mean, why are they doing these things?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:29

And what are the roots of stormwater management?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:32

I came across and realized one of the original stormwater gurus of what today is being basically was forced on all these builders long before the global warming stuff took over was Owen Seifert.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:47

And the Nazis called them Wild Owen.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:50

So I wrote an article about stormwater and about Nazis and the green movement.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:01:58

And our newsletter was basically went out to every newspaper, you know, in the state.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:05

It went to every city administration in the state.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:08

It went to every government post in the state, of course, plus all of the members.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:11

And so, I mean, it was, you know, it was a pretty widely read and went to the, you know, right to people's homes.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:18

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:19

Well, anyway, this created a huge firestorm in Seattle.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:24

So, I mean, they publicly made a fool of me.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:27

And.

Speaker B 01:02:28

Oh, wow.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:29

I mean, it was just.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:31

Yeah, I mean, they just.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:32

It was just madness.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:33

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:34

And so when I saw that, I realized there's something here.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:38

And so I really.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:39

I started to look into it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:40

But the other thing I was seeing that really struck me, and that's.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:44

This is why I read the book.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:45

So when I started to see.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:02:46

See this connection, is that the same arguments that I heard of Evergreen State College, the teachers, professors and the books we read criticizing Christian, Christians and Christianity for destroying the planet, the Germans were saying the same thing about the Jews in the 18 hundreds.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:05

So when I saw that they are the exact same arguments.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:10

They are.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:11

No, you're just transferring from one guy to the next.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:13

But the arguments are the same.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:15

And when I saw that, I realized, okay, we need to get this in print.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:20

And I had a couple people encourage me to do it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:24

And so, yeah, so that was the motivation for it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:28

And when you look at the roots, the environmental movement, as I say, like in Russian, there's nothing good going on here.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:39

Maybe with regard to conservation is okay, that's more of a judeo christian view.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:44

You conserve things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:45

You manage things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:46

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:47

You are the steward of things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:50

In environmentalism, nature is king and nature rules you, and you're just, you know, basically, you're nothing.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:03:57

They're trying to save the planet and your name's not there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:02

And the very fact, very fact they're trying to save it, the very fact they're trying to save it means that there's a salvation there, but it's been secularized into a kind of a nature religion science mixture.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:15

And that's where we are right now.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:16

And the propaganda is thicken.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:18

And that worldview passed through national socialism.

Speaker B 01:04:23

Great, because that's where I wanted to start, but particularly not national socialism as such.

Speaker B 01:04:32

To read the book, you explain how the worldview actually began in the 17 hundreds and in the 18 hundreds.

Speaker B 01:04:38

And it appears it began building momentum through the 18 hundreds, climaxing and sort of metastasizing in a way in national socialism as a political, economic, and religious kind of, in a sense, religious ideology?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:52

Yes, of course.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:53

Semi religious.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:54

There's no question.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:04:55

Some more religious than others, you know, depending on who it was.

Speaker B 01:05:00

So maybe we can go ahead, please.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:02

I put it this way.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:03

To people.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:04

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:04

If you look at the history, for example, of Old Testament.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:07

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:08

Baalism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:10

Okay, this was what brought Israel down the first, the northern kingdom.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:15

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:15

From.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:16

They went down in 721, 722 BC to the assyrian empire.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:20

And they came in, why?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:21

Because of their foolish idolatry.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:24

Baalism, okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:25

And so.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:26

But it took 200 years for the final fruits of that to, you know, basically become the destruction of the nation.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:34

And then the southern kingdom lasted longer.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:36

Judah, Jerusalem.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:38

Because they had repentance on occasion.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:40

You know, they were able to recover.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:41

They have some good kings, but eventually Baal ism brought them down, too, and it was like 400 years, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:47

So these things should not be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:52

Shouldn't be surprising.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:05:53

So it takes time and for the fruits for those things to finally snowball into something more serious.

Speaker B 01:06:03

So can you talk about some of the influential thinkers in the 18 hundreds in particular, like I can think of?

Speaker B 01:06:10

Nietzsche, of course, was significant, but he was not a Nazi.

Speaker B 01:06:14

He obviously wasn't a national socialist.

Speaker B 01:06:16

But a lot of the early work was.

Speaker B 01:06:18

A lot of the early seeds were sown during this time, according to your book.

Speaker B 01:06:22

So maybe you can walk through some of the names and some of the movements that began to sow the seeds that would later spring up.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:07:44

Well, what you can argue is Nietzsche was proto Nazi.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:07:48

He was not nazi himself, but many of his ideas were absorbed by national socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:07:53

And Nietzsche is a very important.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:07:55

Nietzsche.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:07:56

I'm german, but Nietzsche is a very important figure because Nietzsche was Hitler's second favorite philosopher.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:03

People don't know this, but the Nazis put up, like a monument to him.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:09

They had, I don't say like a museum, but a study center for Nietzsche's worldview, for his ethics, for whatever they were, the superman stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:20

And so what the Nazis did, they merged Nietzsche's Superman ethos with.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:25

This is like the Superman ethos is mean today.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:29

There's no God.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:30

We've actually crucified him, so to speak, according to Nietzsche, practically speaking, because of our academic progress.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:38

And he's thinking of people like Kant and people like that that preceded him.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:43

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:43

And so now what we have is these.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:47

We have no gods that are gonna help us, and so we need to become gods ourselves, like little demi gods.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:52

And this is part of his whole Superman ethos for men to grow up and to be real men.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:08:58

And so that actually mixes with the nazi biological views of racism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:03

So, see, it wasn't merely the so called science of social darwinism and biology that led the Nazis to their racist views.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:12

You have this Nietzsche Superman stuff also playing a role.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:15

And Hitler loved.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:17

You can criticize all you want.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:18

There's all kinds of books out there, people going both ways, trying to save Nietzsche's hide from the national socialist connections.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:25

But they're actually there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:26

I mean, you can sit there and say, well, he wasn't anti semite.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:31

Well, the problem is, he's buddies.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:33

He listened to Arthur Schopenhauer, and he was a super anti semite, which a lot of people don't know.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:40

And he was also friends with Richard Wagner, the composer, and he was also super, okay, anti semite.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:47

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:47

There was some kind of conflict between them, this and that and the other.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:51

And yet, and in his books, on occasion, you will see Nietzsche say, the odor of the Jews, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:09:58

And this goes back to Schopenhauer and the odor of the Jews, according to Schopenhauer, was the anti nature views of the Jews against nature.

Speaker B 01:10:08

So, okay, so talk about that specifically because.

Speaker B 01:10:11

Because it gets to what you were discussing during your time at Evergreen State College and in Seattle, as you're looking into these issues, that there's a worldview that's being set up in opposition to the judeo christian, jewish, and then christian worldview that takes a different tack on some of the things that are early on in Genesis.

Speaker B 01:10:30

So maybe we can set up those two opposing worldviews and juxtapose them together.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:34

Well, Schopenhauer is the guy that really emphasized this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:38

He goes back a little bit earlier than Nietzsche.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:42

Nietzsche was, you know, he died in 1900, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:44

And Schopenhauer was born in the late 17 hundreds.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:47

He died, I can't remember it, like, 1860.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:49

I can't remember exactly.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:50

But so he proceeded.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:52

He precedes nietzsche.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:10:55

And what Schopenhauer emphasized over and over again, especially in some of his books, is he would complain about, you know, the jews we need to exterminate.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:06

Actually used the term, that type of stuff, you know, the jewish views of nature from the european continent.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:13

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:15

By the way, Schopenhauer was Hitler's favorite philosopher.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:18

Number one was Schopenhauer.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:19

Number two was Nietzsche, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:23

And this idea that Hitler was, you know, couldn't read these men or, you know, didn't know about these men, really.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:29

Or it was just.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:30

I mean, come on.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:30

I mean, he read these books, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:33

He was not some, you know, really dumb guy.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:36

Of course, he.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:37

He's twisted and all that kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:39

We understand all that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:40

But he.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:40

He was a voracious reader.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:42

He read lots of things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:43

And Schopenhauer was his favorite philosopher.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:45

And secondly, Nietzsche.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:46

And they are connected.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:47

So, basically you can make a line from Schopenhauer to Nietzsche in the sense of, we call this the existential movement.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:11:55

And by existentialism, we mean this world with no intervention from God, and then it's strictly existence.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:04

And what matters is not.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:06

Therefore, that's all there is.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:08

What matters is not your thought, it's your will.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:13

See?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:14

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:14

See?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:14

And so what nature has is not necessarily thinking.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:17

And of course, that's true.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:18

If you look at nature alone.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:20

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:20

That's what you're gonna come up with.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:22

So Schopenhauer is gonna come up with this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:24

Existentialism, pure existentialism, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:27

And so he said, look at what is most characteristic of the world we live in.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:33

The one we know, the one that's just get rid of the Bible.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:36

Forget about supernatural stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:37

It's the will.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:39

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:40

So Nietzsche's going to take that, and he'll talk about the freedom.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:44

Not the freedom, but the will to power.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:47

And then the Nazis, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:48

It's a triumph of the will.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:50

And Lenny Reifenstahl makes this super movie about the Nazis that was banned for a number of years because of its.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:12:59

It was so influential, a documentary about the national socialist movement they called the triumph of the will.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:05

So what matters is not your thought.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:08

It's what you will to be the case.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:10

So this is what we call existentialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:13

And that existentialism is that will is against the will of God, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:18

It's against a transcendent will from the outside.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:21

And so it's man's will, and it's a man.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:24

He's rooted in nature and he's rooted in.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:27

And of course, Nietzsche talked about the man of this world, the man of nature, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:31

And so this was part of his whole discussion.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:34

And then the Nazis also talked about the natural man.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:36

The reason why they were the master race is because they were the closest to nature, and that's what they thought, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:43

And the social darwinism is also the scientific aspect to this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:47

All that also was brewing it all at the same time.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:49

So you have this existentialism that was anti semitic, and he routinely criticized the Jews for even, like, things like animal cruelty.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:57

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:13:58

Then you have this mixing with science, with biology and social darwinism, and then you have this Nietzsche Superman ethos, and you put those three ingredients together, you've got yourself quite the.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:12

It's not a Molotov cocktail.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:14

It's going to be something more serious than that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:16

And this was all absorbed in the academia that continued to grow up until the rise of the national socialist movement.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:24

So those things were very at the rock bottom.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:29

Schopenhauer was especially irate against the Jews for animal cruelty.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:35

He blamed the Jews for animal vivisection.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:40

When you do experiments on animals, he traces all the way back to Genesis.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:46

In fact, one of the first things the Nazis did in 1933 was to pass an animal rights law.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:52

People don't know this, but it's true.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:14:54

1934, my home state of Washington gave Hitler a humane Society award.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:00

It was like the Eichelberger Humane Award.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:02

1934 in Seattle, I'm not too far from here.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:06

And here, all these people, when I wrote this article about this green Nazi, Alan Seifert, starting stormwater, okay, my own city of Seattle gave the Hitler the Fuhrer an award for being such a guy who loved animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:21

So this was not so.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:22

He was well known by then, even by 1933, for being a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:26

For being a nature bar.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:29

I gotta move that.

Will Spencer 01:15:31

No problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:39

I'm sorry about that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:40

My sister walks in, she never does this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:43

She probably do it today because.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:44

Ron, you have to cut that out.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:46

So I'm sorry.

Speaker B 01:15:48

Yeah, that's all.

Will Spencer 01:15:49

That's what sisters are for.

Speaker B 01:15:50

They're there to mess up their brothers.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:52

She's never been there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:53

And then she's here this morning.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:55

Sorry about that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:56

Anyway, so they had an animal rights law they passed in 1933.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:15:59

And I.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:00

One of the things that they did, probably the most important thing they did, they banned jewish kosher slaughter for being too cruel.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:08

And of course, Schopenhauer talked about this, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:10

And they made a big movie about this, the Nazis in 1940, about how cruel the Jews were to the animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:16

This, in 1940, they call it the eternal jew.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:19

See, that's against this existentialism of this life, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:23

This life.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:23

Only then you have the eternal jew because he's borrowing things that are not true from the transcendent outside.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:28

That's just superstition.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:30

And they have, yeah, they've given us a worldview that is very destructive to the world we live in and especially toward animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:40

So.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:41

And this is actually highlighted as the most heinous aspect of why the Jews need to be eradicated.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:48

So if you look at the eternal jew, this documentary lasts, I think, about an hour.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:53

And they go through various things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:54

You know, why they're evil, why they're not good, you know, they're in the ghettos and, you know, you go through this and that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:16:59

The other thing, they sit, they don't want to work, and, you know, they just go to the banks, they run, you know, the Hollywood of Germany back then, they corrupt our society with the things that they are presenting.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:17:12

So it goes on and on.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:17:13

But then the climax of this, of this documentary, and it really spends a lot of time with this is animal cruelty, kosher slaughterhouse.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:17:21

And they actually show the process to make people really angry at, you know, at the jewish people.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:17:27

So that's called the eternal jew.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:17:29

It was broadcast, it was put in all the movies of, you know, movie halls of Nazi Germany in those days and other places, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:17:38

And so that's Schopenhauer's connection, what he calls the odor of the Jews, okay, eventually leads to what the Nazis presented to Germany, the eternal jew.

Speaker B 01:17:51

So I think the thing that was most informative for me about your book, and I'm very grateful that I had the chance to kind of reread it, preparing for the interview.

Speaker B 01:18:00

So most reading is rereading.

Speaker B 01:18:03

And so to go through it, I read it in December, January, February of this year, and then to pick it up again after some of the ideas had settled in and reengage with the material to see the various streams.

Speaker B 01:18:14

So we can talk about existentialism, or we can talk about social darwinism, or we can talk about romanticism.

Speaker B 01:18:20

That all of these were various tributaries that fed one big river, and each individual tributary in and of itself might not necessarily lead to that inevitable conclusion.

Speaker B 01:18:32

But when you fuse them all together, you get something truly explosive and destructive that we don't really understand today, for the reason that you had said earlier that Germany has never really fully repented for what actually went on.

Speaker B 01:18:46

In fact, it sounds like from the early narrative of the book, what instead happened is the national socialism nazi movement was politicized very quickly by the allied powers to make it into the enemy, that they needed it to be covered up a lot of what was actually going on.

Speaker B 01:19:03

And then we just went about our business, all of us carrying these lies about who the national socialists really were.

Speaker B 01:19:10

And that seems to me to be the case.

Speaker B 01:19:12

And now people have these ideas from film and tv, right, and the media, essentially, that paint the picture of Nazis as christians and capitalists when they hated both of those things, which is the hysterical part.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:19:29

Well, I mean, when they arrived in Nazi Germany, the army, and I don't think they had really a solid understanding of what's really going on with the worldview of national socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:19:43

They were just shocked at how is it that a so called educated country could do this?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:19:48

And they're not looking at things deeply and more seriously that look at the same so called most educated society of Germany.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:19:58

They gave spawn to the reformation, okay, with Martin Luther, but within a couple hundred years, they're already rebelling against that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:04

So by the 18 hundreds, it's an all out assault against the Bible, which probably is at the real root of everything.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:10

I don't really talk about that a little bit because that's really not the point of what I'm trying to get at.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:15

But another argument could be made is that the higher criticism that we've heard so much about.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:21

Okay, and some of these guys were also anti Semites with this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:26

And if they weren't, maybe vocally, per se, still, the whole edifice was anti semitic.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:33

They're trying to get rid of the jewish elements.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:36

And they started out by attacking the historicity of the Bible and largely because of its so called jewish influences, which goes back to Immanuel Kant.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:45

And he's another rabid anti semite that people don't understand either.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:50

He was extremely critical of jewish people.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:53

You don't see this in his writings, but his lectures was full of anti Semitism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:59

So he also.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:20:59

And he also used the word exterminate when he talked about jewish people, that term.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:04

So Schopenhauer, and maybe not the exact german term, I couldn't tell you what that was.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:10

But the idea, it's not good, is that you have Kant and you have Schopenhauer.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:15

They become like prophets of the future for Germany, even though they would have been aghast at what the Nazis actually did.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:24

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:26

But yet when you put forth these ideas and at the time, people really all pay attention to them and things like this, it seems like it's innocuous idea, but they're really not.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:38

And over time, these ideas metastasize into something very serious, like the tributaries you mentioned.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:43

Very good illustration.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:44

And finally it coalesces into, you know, the drain that goes out to the ocean.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:49

Then that's where it's a big problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:52

So now my wife.

Speaker B 01:21:57

Anyway, ladies, the boys are talking.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:21:59

Yeah, right, right.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:00

Anyway, it's just a big topic, and it's hard to.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:06

So my book details all of those different, different discussions, and.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:10

And people just don't know that history.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:12

And it's very difficult to know it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:14

I mean, you have to spend time, and they just kind of ignore it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:17

And part of it is because today we live in such an existentialist world.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:21

Anyway, that's what we call post modernism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:24

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:25

So people don't care about what people believe anymore.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:28

So they don't look at it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:29

They don't take it serious.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:30

And so the beliefs of the Nazis.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:33

I was amazed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:34

Okay, I've looked at.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:35

I've read lots of books on national socialism, okay?

Speaker B 01:22:38

Lots of time, 15 page bibliography.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:41

I mean, and there are.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:44

There are very few books that you can find that actually try to explain what the Nazis actually believed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:22:53

So what they've done is that they've projected onto the Nazis things that really aren't true based on their own.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:00

Whatever, though.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:01

These guys were mean, racist.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:02

Okay, okay, well, that's a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:03

That's true.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:04

But why were they mean races?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:06

How did they get there?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:07

They're not answering that question.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:09

They don't even ask the questions about it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:12

And they're very superficial and simplistic answers.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:15

And the whole anti God, the anti biblical, anti reformation stuff played a big role, because in order to become an existentialist, okay, you have to reject the Bible.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:28

See, so Germany was supposedly in its reformation, and then during this time, they make this transition from the reformation to existentialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:37

And then after national socialism, we have what we call postmodernism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:42

And all these ideas are still with us.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:44

They have not.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:46

They've just trained.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:47

They've changed into something new in terms of labels.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:23:51

But basically, it's the same ideas, but the names have changed.

Speaker B 01:23:55

So I want to drill in to the specific german romantic antisemitism, because we're shown this today, and I think we've all been shown german anti semitism our whole lives.

Speaker B 01:24:09

Not a year goes by where there's not a new Holocaust movie.

Speaker B 01:24:11

But as you said, very rightly, no one asks why.

Speaker B 01:24:16

It's just assumed, like, oh, they just hate the Jews because they're Jews.

Will Spencer 01:24:21

Right?

Speaker B 01:24:22

But the german romantic element, as you laid it out with Schopenhauer and Nietzsche and Kante, had a specifically environmental quality to it.

Speaker B 01:24:31

That was the real, let's call it sin from the german romantic perspective.

Speaker B 01:24:36

So maybe we can talk about that, because that speaks to, I think, a question that, as you just said, no one really asks, like, why?

Speaker B 01:24:44

And the roots of that were ultimately environmentalist in nature.

Speaker B 01:24:48

So maybe we can talk about that for a moment, because that just opens the door, I think, to everything else.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:24:52

Well, see, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche were existentialist, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:24:59

And then.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:00

But then before that, you have what we call romanticism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:04

And this is.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:04

I don't know how to characterize, you know, they want to be one with nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:07

It's kind of a romance with nature, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:10

And the idea is to commune with the natural world in such a way that we don't abuse it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:15

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:16

So this is what we call the romantic worldview, which in Germany was pretty strong.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:21

I mean, it was also in England, too, but in Germany, it takes on this anti semitic role.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:27

So again, they're blaming.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:29

The german romantics are blaming the Jews for the destruction of nature, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:34

They're in the cities, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:36

They're running the banks and the train system, and this is leading to destruction of the forest and all the things that are dear to our folk culture.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:46

You know, that we grew up close to the land, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:49

So that kind of stuff, it's uprooting us from our foundations, you know, on this romantic world that we.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:55

We think that we live in.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:25:56

See that, you know, the form, the pastoral background, you know, from a romantic point of view, that it's actually anti God, strangely enough, anti biblical.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:06

But still, the romantic movement preceded all that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:09

And so they also had this anti semitic to it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:13

Probably the most.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:14

There's a number of them, but probably the most anti semitic that's.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:18

Is his.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:18

You know, his name was, again, he was like, in the 1860s, Riel.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:23

So he was a very strong anti semite.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:26

He was a forester.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:27

He, like.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:28

He liked that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:28

He was into teaching on forestry professor.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:32

You know, he had a big impact.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:34

He wrote some books, the natural history of Germany, three volume set.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:38

I've read through a lot of it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:40

Again, a number of anti semitic quotes, okay, that are presented in his book, blaming the Jews for this kind of ecological destruction.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:49

They didn't call it ecology back then.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:51

They would just call it nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:26:53

So the man that actually invented the word ecology is Ernst Haeckel, and he was a german social darwinist.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:01

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:02

The first.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:02

He's really the father of german social darwinism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:05

And he was a man that took Darwin's view of evolution and converted it into social darwinism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:14

He made it more social.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:17

He made it more political.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:19

And so Darwin's going to be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:22

He's more English.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:23

He's going to be more hesitant to do that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:24

But the Nazis, I mean, the Germans and the Nazis later on, too, would adopt many of these ideas.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:31

He's going to actually socialize this view.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:36

He's a scientist, but he's like a social scientist along with it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:39

See, even though he was, I think, a paleontologist, if I remember correctly.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:43

But he's the one who coined the term ecology in 1866, and then he's the father of german social darwinism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:51

So there, at the root of environmentalism, ecology, you have racism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:56

And by the way, when.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:27:57

When people start talking about overpopulation, okay, to me there, it's no better to be sitting there talking about overpopulation than racism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:05

It's the same thing as far as I'm concerned, because racism is just one form of anti humanism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:11

And today our world is very anti humanistic.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:15

Nature is everything today.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:17

And at some point, something bad is going to happen to people because of these bad ideas, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:22

And we're not quite there yet, but you can see where things are headed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:26

And it may take longer than we realize, like always, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:30

But at some point, something bad is going to happen and it's because of these bad ideas.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:35

And romanticism also played a role.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:37

So you have romanticism, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:40

Romance with nature, commune with nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:42

A holistic view of nature that's against the holiness of God.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:47

You know, if you look at the hebrew term, for example, the word for holy basically, sometimes can mean whole, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:28:55

But the holism, the holiness, comes from God, from the outside, from the transcendent source.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:00

It doesn't come from.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:01

With you and doesn't come from nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:03

So what the romantics want is for nature to give us purity.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:08

So they strangely think that nature is pure.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:12

And I mean, and this is that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:14

This is actually at the root of a lots of strange, faulty ideas about how to fix the environmental catastrophe for our world.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:21

They think nature is pure.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:22

So what you have to do is set aside people and everything they do.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:25

And if we do that, then everything is going to be pure, which is false.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:30

That's a false idea.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:30

It simply is not true at all.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:32

The Nazis had a very similar view in the sense we get rid of the Jews.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:35

That's going to solve many of our ecological problems, see, our biological problems, our ecological problems.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:42

And what people don't realize is that with.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:29:44

With Haeckel, okay, he's going to make us biology, evolution and social Darwinism into a science, okay?

Will Spencer 01:29:53

This is Haeckel, by the way, not Hegel.

Speaker B 01:29:55

So h a e c k e l.

Speaker B 01:29:57

I'm just making sure to clarify that for listeners that we're not talking about Hegel.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:00

Haeckel.

Will Spencer 01:30:02

Haeckel with a K.

Will Spencer 01:30:03

Haeckel.

Speaker B 01:30:04

Please continue, sir.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:05

Haeckel's a problem, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:07

We'll get to him shortly.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:08

Yes, but no.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:11

So Haeckel is going to bring all those things together, and he's going to emphasize that he wasn't anti semitic, but he was anti christian.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:21

And again, he's pro nature, anti christian.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:24

So he blamed Christianity again for the destruction of nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:30

So all of those ideas were all there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:33

And they go back to the 18 hundreds.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:36

That's sort of the seedbed for all of these things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:38

And it's after the reformation was rejected.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:40

See?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:41

So once that's done, then you start getting into other ideas.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:45

They thought they were progressive, you know, but really it was heading toward, you know, doomsday, World War one, and we could talk about that too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:30:56

World War two was even worse.

Speaker B 01:30:58

So I want to read the Wikipedia entry about romanticism really quickly because I think it touches on a lot of things.

Speaker B 01:31:05

So romanticism, also known as the romantic movement or romantic eradic, was an artistic and intellectual movement that originated in Europe.

Will Spencer 01:31:12

Towards the end of the 18th century.

Speaker B 01:31:14

So the 17 hundreds.

Speaker B 01:31:16

The purpose of the movement was to advocate for the importance of subjectivity, imagination, and appreciation of nature in society and culture.

Speaker B 01:31:23

In response to the age of Enlightenment and the industrial revolution, romanticists rejected the social conventions of the time in favor of a moral outlook known as individualism.

Speaker B 01:31:33

They argued that passion and intuition were crucial to understanding the world, and that beauty is more than merely an altar, an affair of form, but rather something that evokes a strong emotional response.

Speaker B 01:31:45

With this philosophical foundation, the romantics elevated several key themes which they were deeply committed.

Speaker B 01:31:51

To, which they were deeply committed.

Speaker B 01:31:52

A reverence for nature and the supernatural, an idealization of the past as a nobler era, a fascination with the exotic and the mysterious, and a celebration of the heroic and the sublime.

Speaker B 01:32:04

And so the Wikipedia article, and I'm going to try and share my screen right now, the Wikipedia article shows an image that I think it looks like I'm not going to be able to share my screen at the moment using this software, but we'll add it in, we'll try and add it in afterwards.

Speaker B 01:32:22

So the Wikipedia article shows the very famous painting wanderer above the sea of fog by Caspar David Friedrich.

Speaker B 01:32:29

So for listeners, you've seen this painting before many, many times, particularly in the masculinity movement.

Speaker B 01:32:35

It depicts a man standing at the pinnacle of rock.

Speaker B 01:32:38

Pinnacle of rock.

Speaker B 01:32:39

He's got flaming red hair and he's looking out over a sea of clouds.

Speaker B 01:32:43

This used to be one of my favorite paintings for a very long time.

Speaker B 01:32:47

This is one of the signature works of the romantic movement is wanderer above a sea of fog.

Speaker B 01:32:53

And you can see a lot of those ideas from romanticism embodied in that painting.

Speaker B 01:32:58

And the artist himself, Caspar David Friedrich, who used to be one of my favorite painters as well, so the romantic era had a particularly strong grip over the german imagination for thinking about things in unbiblical and anti biblical way.

Speaker B 01:33:11

So I just wanted to lay that sort of philosophical groundwork for everyone listening so they understand just how powerful the romantic movement was, because this is not.

Speaker B 01:33:19

We're rooting our truth in the Bible.

Speaker B 01:33:21

We're rooting the truth in God's word.

Speaker B 01:33:23

So we're rooting it in nature.

Speaker B 01:33:24

We're rooting in individualism.

Speaker B 01:33:26

We're rooting it in mysticism, in the exotic and the heroic past, not in the eternal word of God.

Speaker B 01:33:34

And this took place in the late 17 hundreds.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:33:37

Well, let me read a quote from Ernst Layman.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:33:42

He was a biology professor, 1880 to 1957.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:33:46

And he was also a national socialist, and noted that this is what his view of national socialism was.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:33:52

He says, we recognize that separating humanity from nature, from the whole of life.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:33:58

There's our holism leads to humankind's own destruction and to the death of nations.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:04

Only through a reintegration of humanity into the whole of nature can our people be made stronger.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:11

That is the fundamental point of the biological tasks of our age.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:14

So there's our racism in terms of social Darwinism and evolutionary theory.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:20

You know, that type of stuff and biology.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:23

Humankind alone is no longer the focus of thought, but rather life as a whole.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:29

This striving towards connectedness with the totality of life, by the way.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:33

Totality of life.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:34

There's totalitarianism with nature itself.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:38

This is why I sharply disagree with.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:42

You know, the romantics say that we're in individuals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:44

No, they don't.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:45

They believe the destruction of the individual because he merges with nature to the point where he no longer matters with nature itself and nature into which we are born.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:54

This is the deepest meaning and true essence of national socialist thought.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:34:59

Now, when did you ever hear that in some.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:01

You know, some school of some sort?

Speaker B 01:35:04

Never.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:05

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:06

I mean, right?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:06

It's really sad.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:07

I mean, some people have no idea what the Nazis actually believed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:11

And so I didn't know either.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:13

I mean, I knew all about Marxism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:16

I've read lots of Marx, okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:17

And I knew a lot, you know, a lot of his stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:20

And, you know, from my days at Evergreen.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:22

But I knew nothing of national Socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:25

There's just a big blind, you know, like a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:27

Like a hole there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:29

Well, now I know national Socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:30

And in my opinion, I think my book should be read in every academic institution before they go to college.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:37

I mean, just look at what's cool.

Speaker B 01:35:39

I agree because.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:40

I agree because it's just, it's so everything that's going on today is, it's all there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:47

I mean, the entire green.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:49

Everything they're doing today with regard to the green movement, the Nazis were emphasizing the same things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:35:56

Well, that's shocking.

Speaker B 01:35:58

That was one of the things on my first read through that was very convincing to your thesis.

Speaker B 01:36:03

I mean, obviously, looking at it now, it's like, after allowing it to settle in, of course, very convincing.

Speaker B 01:36:09

But to recognize when I was talking to people about this book, because the idea is that the Nazis were green leftists, right.

Speaker B 01:36:17

That just rocked a lot of people's minds because they'd had, oh no, they're christian capitalists.

Speaker B 01:36:23

That's obviously who they were.

Speaker B 01:36:24

Right.

Speaker B 01:36:25

But to say, no, they weren't that at all.

Speaker B 01:36:27

They were actually quite, they were closer in ideology to today's green ecological environmentalists.

Speaker B 01:36:33

And the thing that was most convincing to me was you cited the book how Green were the Nazis, which was, I guess, a leftist book, that they were already, that the left was already trying to distance themselves from the Nazis.

Speaker B 01:36:46

Like, no, no, no, we don't really have anything to do with them.

Speaker B 01:36:48

Like, why would they do that if there wasn't substantial evidence for them to try?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:36:53

No, I just, I've read all those books and they're also included in my work.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:36:58

So in the early two thousands, you had a number of books that were written.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:02

And even before then too little bit after talking about how, you know, the green connections, national Socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:09

And so it's like they already got out, the leftist people got out to be in front of this before it became a problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:16

And so they wrote these books and then now they're happy.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:19

And so they can use those books to criticize anybody that says anything different.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:24

I mean, so, so that, I mean, they're already ahead of the game.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:26

And of course, conservatives in America don't pay attention.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:29

They're just always being, they're always behind everything, you know, which is sad, but that's, you know, that's how things are.

Speaker B 01:37:37

They're the ones being called Nazis.

Speaker B 01:37:39

Right?

Speaker B 01:37:40

So like, oh, I'm not, no, I'm not.

Speaker B 01:37:42

Like, the Nazis are over there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:44

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:45

Then lately I've been noticing I haven't looked into it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:47

Cause I don't have time for it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:48

But what's going on now?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:50

They're starting to admit, okay, yeah, the Nazis were green, but what ruined it was this male dominance of the Nazis.

Speaker B 01:37:58

Oh, interesting.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:37:59

So this is heading in another direction.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:03

I have not, I've just looked at the titles.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:04

I have not read anything.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:06

But it's something in this direction where the right wing masculinity, this kind of stuff, so ruined the nazi movement.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:13

I would actually argue that what happened is that World War one and World War two basically neutered the west because of all the men that died in both those wars, leaving a lot of argument.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:24

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:25

So leading lots of men, young men that were raised by their mothers.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:31

And so we have a very feminized society that is now finally affecting America, too, because we're listening to Europe too much of the time.

Speaker B 01:38:40

I would be curious to know what some of those titles are.

Speaker B 01:38:42

I'd like to.

Speaker B 01:38:43

I'd like to read them.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:44

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:45

Yeah.

Speaker B 01:38:45

Tell me later.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:46

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:47

I can send you some.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:48

I'd have to.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:50

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:51

There's a few of them.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:38:52

Yeah.

Speaker B 01:38:53

So I wonder if we can talk quickly about Martin Heidegger, because it seems to me that early on, he's sort of painted as the way that some of these ideas from the National Socialists slipped in to the dialogue under the COVID of perhaps his girlfriend.

Speaker B 01:39:11

So maybe we can talk about the two of them as well.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:15

Heidegger is an existentialist.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:17

He loved, you know, he loved Nietzsche.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:21

And so his whole thing was to, you know, make Nietzsche more updated, you know, for the National Socialist age.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:28

And, you know, he was a real Nazi.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:30

People don't realize this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:32

I mean, he was a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:33

He was a card carry, card carrying Nazi.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:36

He never repented of his Nazism after the war.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:39

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:39

He said he felt that what happened is that the Nazis became too industrialized.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:46

Okay, well, that's because they started a war, and you can't, once you start a war, you have to industrialize.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:53

There's no way around this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:54

And so the Nazis had to go.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:39:56

They had to betray all of their principles at the beginning, that they held dear to themselves, that they had to finally let go of that stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:05

And we've got to make tanks and forget all this other stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:08

Of course, they didn't do that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:09

They've made rockets, too, and all kinds of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:12

But, you know, the technology stuff is another issue.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:15

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:16

You have to sit down and think about, how can the Nazis be so technologically minded and yet be emphasized?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:20

The green movement.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:21

Well, look at what's going on today.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:22

Who are the most technological people we have today and who are most interested in nature?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:28

It's the same people.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:29

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:30

You've got, you know, all of the Googles and apples and all this stuff, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:35

These guys are all super technology peoples, supposedly, and they're all, you know, romantics and various ways existentialist and environmentalist and other ways.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:45

So John Denver, for example, you know, he loved flying.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:49

And, you know, I think Reagan asked him to, you know, do this when the challenger blew up.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:54

He did the song for it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:40:56

And he was always, you know, proud of, you know, that type, space, you know, space travel.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:03

Of course, he won a Ron Brown.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:04

We haven't even mentioned him, but it's the same kind of a problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:08

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:09

And there's some research that needs to be done with regard to him.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:14

There's some more serious research.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:15

But he's an SS Nazi.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:17

He also has very.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:19

He.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:20

I'm sure he has.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:21

He was concerned about global warming coming from carbon dioxide in the 1950s.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:24

I can't prove it because I don't have time to chase it down, but I know it's there because this kind of snuck into some of these Disney cartoons in the 1950s.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:33

And, you know, he was portrayed as this, you know, great guy that's going to give us the space agent.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:39

And so then these cartoons that were on 1950s in America, and I saw him as a kid in the 19, early seventies, late sixties, they were talking to one of them, several of them, they put together, and one of them talks about how great this super age is going to be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:53

And then.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:54

And then all of a sudden, the flying ointment, this is 1950s is carbon dioxide.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:41:59

Too much of it, and it's gonna.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:42:01

It's gonna pollute the atmosphere and lead to all kinds of flooding going on.

Speaker B 01:42:05

No way.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:42:06

Really?

Speaker B 01:42:07

1950S?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:42:08

Yes.

Speaker B 01:42:10

A better, simpler time.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:42:14

So, I mean, so, again, that idea was there in the 1950s, and now look where it's at.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:42:19

It takes time to develop ideas, and then eventually they take over.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:42:24

And then later on, once the ideas, they put them into practice, then you have the fruits of it.

Speaker B 01:42:31

So we've talked about some of the names that surround the Nazis.

Speaker B 01:42:37

So we talked about Schopenhauer and Kant and Nietzsche and Haeckel and Heidegger.

Speaker B 01:42:42

We've talked about the intellectual and in some sense, spiritual contexts that surrounded them.

Speaker B 01:42:47

Maybe we can talk about some of the beliefs of the Nazis themselves.

Speaker B 01:42:52

So Himmler, we can talk about Bormann.

Speaker B 01:42:54

We can talk about Goering.

Speaker B 01:42:55

Of course, I'd love to talk about Hitler and what he believed, because we've set the context to see that this was not a christian movement.

Speaker B 01:43:03

These were not christian men.

Speaker B 01:43:05

They were not surrounded by christian men.

Speaker B 01:43:06

In fact, I might also like to talk about what had happened to the church in the decades leading up to Nazism.

Speaker B 01:43:14

But so we've talked about the intellectual context that these men were embedded in the many philosophical streams that the tributaries that fed the river.

Speaker B 01:43:23

Let's talk about what the men of National Socialism actually believed.

Speaker B 01:43:27

And maybe we can just go through a bunch of the different names.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:43:30

Well, like we already mentioned, I think, in terms of ideology, okay, Heidegger would probably would be the most serious, you know, Nazi in terms of the philosophy of national Socialism, which was a national socialist existentialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:43:45

And so basically, for example, you've heard this discussion about, you know, being okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:43:52

Being.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:43:53

That's his big emphasis.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:43:55

Well, he said, the fatherland is being itself.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:00

And so being okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:02

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:03

That means a quotation from Heidegger.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:05

Okay, so being is like the existential in this world, okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:09

This world only without any outside interference from the outside.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:14

This is being okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:16

And so he taught in his lectures that the fatherland was being itself.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:21

And so that would be his view.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:24

And from there, he's going to develop what later becomes what we call being.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:29

And he said, let being be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:32

And so this is after the war?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:36

This is after the war.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:38

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:38

John Lennon sang the song let it be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:40

Okay, so, okay, what's going on after.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:42

After national socialism?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:44

Is that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:45

Is that the will?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:47

The Nazis, like, ruined the will.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:49

So Heidegger saw what the Nazis can do with will.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:53

And so there's kind of a semi repentance.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:55

It's not serious, but a little bit.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:57

And so then let's just let being be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:44:59

So now the will is destroyed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:03

So, you know, basically, if you.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:06

We can give a rundown of history very quickly, you know, with the Protestants, what was important, the Bible alone.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:13

Let's get back to the Bible.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:15

That's like a romantic view that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:16

Okay, we're gonna go back to the origins, back to the purity of the Bible.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:20

That's a romantic view.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:21

And we want to reproduce a New Testament church.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:26

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:26

But it's a biblical romanticism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:28

So it's.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:28

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:30

Romanticism is like a counterfeit to that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:33

So what they want to do is use.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:34

First of all, you had reason.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:37

We want to use reason alone.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:39

So we go from Bible alone to reason alone, and that's our humanism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:44

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:46

And then the romantics came along and said, well, this humanism has no place for nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:50

And that's a distortion because you got that humanism from Christianity.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:55

So they started to criticize that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:56

So then it becomes sort of nature alone.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:45:59

And then with nature alone, we are now existentialism, the will alone.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:05

And then after the destruction of world War two, what can be done with the will?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:10

Well, lots of bad things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:12

Okay, now.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:12

Okay, now it's got.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:14

Let's just let being be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:16

And this really is at the heart of the environmental movement in the sense we just need to let nature be.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:21

If you don't touch it, I mean, you can have sex with anything that moves, but if you touch mother nature, it's like you're touching a virgin.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:29

See?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:30

And you better not touch it.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:32

And so this is really sort of the underlying how Martin Heidegger played a big role, going from the early romanticism, existentialism, now to the postmodernism, where just let being be and your will, your intellect doesn't really matter that much.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:49

The will is, you know, be careful of your masculine will, as we say today.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:55

So that would be Martin Heidegger.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:46:56

And I think he's a pretty important person to help understand national socialist ideology.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:01

The guy that was most known, actually, is.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:05

He wrote the myth of the 20th century.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:09

I can't think of his name.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:11

No, not spirit Rosenberg.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:14

He was supposedly the official nazi propagandist.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:18

But Hitler kind of made fun of him quite a bit.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:22

But still, I mean, he was a mean guy.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:24

He played a bad role in the Holocaust.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:25

And I think he was in charge of places in Poland.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:28

I can't remember exactly where it was.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:29

Did some things that were not good.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:31

So he also would be someone.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:33

The myth of the 20th century.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:34

See that kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:36

You read that stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:36

And this will help you understand the National Socialist world.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:38

Do.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:39

Even though Hitler may criticize a few things, but, you know, he's not being more or less the same ideas are there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:45

It's just, you know, he may be critical, just like you and I may be critical of each other over certain theological points.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:52

Okay, we all do this at some point, and this is true.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:47:54

The National Socialists, of course, you have Albert Speer.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:00

Okay, so Albert Speer was probably the closest friend Hitler ever had and probably his real friend.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:06

The only friend, maybe.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:08

I mean, it's hard to say.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:09

I mean.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:11

Well, Rudolph.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:12

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:12

Okay, we'll get to him.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:13

So then you have Albert Speer.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:15

He was sort of the green architect, you know, so he was, you know, he basically what today we call a green building.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:23

Okay, well, he was sort of one of the pioneers of that type of activity.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:27

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:27

And he was involved with that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:29

Another guy that he liked that was.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:31

He actually replaced him in 1942.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:33

He was killed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:34

He was in charge of a lot of that kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:36

And again, the names are kind of forgetting because it's been so long since I've written this book now.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:41

But he was also another green builder, and he did lots of things connected to.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:49

He built the roads, for example, the Audubon.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:52

He was trying to connect things.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:54

He was trying to connect things with nature in a better way, you know?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:58

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:48:59

So he played a role also with this.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:01

I can find it and I'll give it to you.

Speaker B 01:49:03

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:04

But some of these names are, you know, they.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:06

So that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:07

That's the green building aspect.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:09

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:09

Then you have Rudolph Hess.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:10

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:10

He was into basically organic food.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:15

Doctor.

Speaker B 01:49:16

Doctor Tote to bond.

Speaker B 01:49:18

Yep.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:20

So basically, spearhead spirit took his position after he died in world War Two and a plane crashed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:27

Some people have been suspicious, you know, of that plane crash.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:29

But anyway, the war is not going well, even as early as 1942, which a lot of people don't realize it's not.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:36

You know, they were.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:38

They were forcing.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:40

They were going through many problems in world War two, even by 1942.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:45

So you have tote then.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:47

You have, of course, course, Hess.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:48

Hess was like, he loved organic food, but he liked environmental things, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:49:53

Basically, he was in charge of many, what they called in those days, conservationist environmental activities.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:00

He basically put all of the greeners of those days.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:04

They didn't call them greeners back then, but all the conservationists, they kind of put them under the wing of national socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:09

That was sort of his responsibility.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:12

And he was very involved with organic foods.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:15

And he sat in Spandell prison after the war, still complaining about the industrial complex with the food.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:22

So did Heidegger, by the way, everything.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:25

Capitalistic farming practices, this and that and the other.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:28

So Hess would have been someone interested also in organic farming, which a lot of people don't know.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:34

The other thing is you have.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:38

Himmler also was sort of the green mystic.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:41

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:41

So he liked organic farming, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:44

There was so organic farming that they tried to shut down in 1941 because the war was not going well.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:50

And the Nazis realized, we can't be fooling around with experiments right now.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:50:53

We have to get back to food production because we're starting a war and the economic situation is not good.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:00

So they can some people, with regard to organic farming, but Himmler actually took it secretly, and his plan was to bring organic farming into Poland.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:10

So after the Nazis conquered Poland, you can see the beginnings of trying to figure out how can we establish some organic farming that we're going to implement into the new lands that we have now conquered, and we're going to treat better nature better than what happened underneath the Slavs.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:28

And so Himmler also had lots of quasi religious ideas.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:31

He was a mystic.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:32

Okay, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:33

Hermann Goering was sort of a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:36

He was an aristocrat, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:38

And so his connection to environmentalism, okay, is that, you know, he was a, he was a hunter, but he loved the animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:45

I mean, he loved predators.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:47

Especially one of the big emphasis today, environmentalism is they love predators more than the deer and the elk, in case you haven't noticed.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:51:56

What they focus on is all on the predators, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:01

And so, and, you know, by the way, I mean, the farmers of America, they got rid of those predators.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:08

Well, we had a society with guns, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:11

And, you know that they killed all the wolves because they have their farms to take care of and protect.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:17

And, you know, the grizzly bears, too, and the black bears are not so bad.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:20

So anyway, so the predator type stuff, he loved predators, by the way.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:25

He walked around 1936 Olympics with a lion on a leash.

Speaker B 01:52:30

I read that.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:31

Yeah, yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:32

And he just loved the animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:35

And yes, he may have killed him like the deer, but there was a love affair with animals that you should not neglect.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:42

And there are many hunters like this in America today, too, by the way.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:46

So was Aldo Leopold.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:48

He was a hunter, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:49

And he was also a very important environmentalist.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:53

In fact, he wrote a book, you know, that I read in Evergreen State College.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:52:57

And one of the things he talked about is we in America has to get rid of the abrahamic concept of the land.

Speaker B 01:53:05

That's right.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:05

So Ryvard, even right there, it's all the same stuff, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:10

And so guring is that aristocrat.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:12

And I think in a lot of ways, if you look at his history, you realize the aristocratic connections to environmentalism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:20

And this is where you would have, what I would, if you want to call it that, the real right wing, so called ecology goes back to the old aristocracies of Europe, and those old aristocracies were in charge of the land, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:34

And they.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:35

And of course, the king and his forest wanted to protect the land.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:38

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:39

This was the place where he's going to hunt.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:41

And that's sort of the place where, you know, Gurion kind of slips into there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:45

He built a nature reserve, his own house, turned his, he had this big area, big land area, and he turned it into a nature reserve.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:53

He was trying to bring back buffalo.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:55

You know, he had moose on his property, you know, this and that and the other thing.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:53:59

And trying to.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:00

So he, the idea that all he cared about was killing deer is just a bunch.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:04

It's not true.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:04

I mean, Georing was a very strong environmentalist in his own way, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:11

So that's Goering.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:13

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:13

Then you have Hitler himself.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:16

And Hitler's main thing wasn't so much environmentalism, per se, like land use and things like that, and it wasn't connected.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:23

He hated hunting.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:24

So did Himmler.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:25

In fact, they criticized Goering all the time for loving hunting.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:29

So here I am reading all of these how green the Nazis and these kinds of books, trying to save, you know, environmentalism for the National Socialists, you know, you know, from their, you know, getting their hands dirty with national Socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:44

And here they are criticizing goering, you know, for hunting.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:48

Well, so did Hitler, for crying out loud.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:50

And so did Hess.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:51

And Himmler did, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:53

So they all.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:53

They all hated hunting.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:54:54

I'm not sure about Hess, but Himmler, and probably hess did, too, just knowing his worldview.

Speaker B 01:54:59

Yeah, they're all vegetarians.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:01

Yeah, well, they see, what Hitler was into was vegetarianism, but even more than that was the animal rights crusade.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:08

So Hitler's environmental connection is with the animal rights.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:13

And today, that's as big.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:14

I mean, they're at the point now where they're going to give animals more rights than people.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:19

We're almost there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:19

They're trying.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:20

They're working.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:22

And so the 1933 animal rights law was very important.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:26

And this goes back to Arthur and Schopenhauer.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:28

And again, Hitler could quote Schopenhauer verbatim.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:32

And so that's a very strong connection.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:35

So that's Hitler's primary interest in nature was his, you know, the animal cruelty, you know, the humane.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:44

Humane society being humane to animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:47

And then, of course, if you look at Hitler, where did he spend most of his time?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:51

In the alps.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:53

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:53

I mean, it's this beautiful home.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:55:55

I mean, people don't really think about what that really means, but, I mean, it's up in the mountains, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:00

It's a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:00

You know, he's enjoying the natural serenity.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:03

I mean, and, you know, I mean, there's something going on here that is merely beyond what people are.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:12

They don't really think about it as seriously as they should.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:16

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:17

That's about the fear.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:56:18

Yeah.

Speaker B 01:56:19

It's not that, you know, enjoying the mountains or animal cruelty or these things are bad in themselves.

Speaker B 01:56:27

It's that they rooted themselves in an anti biblical worldview.

Speaker B 01:56:31

It's that they were expressions of the belief that nature is predominant over man, and we need to get closer to nature to get closer to what we conceive of as God.

Speaker B 01:56:42

It's environmentalism versus conservationism.

Speaker B 01:56:46

And I think there was a section where you talked about this with the hetch Hetchy dam and John Muir?

Speaker B 01:56:54

I think it was.

Speaker B 01:56:55

And the decisions that even had to be made in the early 20th century America regarding, is nature going to serve man, or is man going to serve nature?

Speaker B 01:57:05

So maybe you can talk about that episode very quickly, because the point that is so essential about the book is not just that we rightly understand history as such.

Speaker B 01:57:15

Yes, that's very, very important, and we do need to get that.

Speaker B 01:57:18

But the national socialist policies and the tributaries that fed the stream, it's not like the river just suddenly ended in the 1940s with the end of world War two.

Will Spencer 01:57:29

It's still feeding us today.

Speaker B 01:57:30

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B 01:57:31

So maybe we can talk about that for a second, because that brings it real into people's lives.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:36

Well, Teddy Roosevelt, and he was a big conservationist back in his day, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:40

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:40

And then you had John Muir.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:42

Well, they got into a conflict in California about how we're gonna.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:45

How are we gonna give water to.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:47

I think that, you know, the San Francisco area.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:49

I don't know the exact.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:50

I think it's San Francisco, but it may be upstream there, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:54

Sierra Nevada mountains.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:57:55

And so they wanted to build a dam so they could have water because California is pretty dry.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:00

So they got into a big debate.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:02

John Muir did not want to build that dam because that dam would actually flood part of one of his favorite areas in the Sierra Nevada mountains.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:10

And so there was a big conflict even back then.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:13

And Teddy rose up, finally decided to go with the, you know, with that dam, because that's what had to be done.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:19

We got people moving in here.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:21

We got to take care of them.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:22

And nature is to be used to help help people survive.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:27

So that antinomy between conservationism and environmentalism was born in America right there.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:34

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:36

They didn't call it, you know, they called it conservationism back in those days, but today we call it environmentalism.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:42

But that antinomy led to what today we call sustainable development.

Speaker B 01:58:46

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:47

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:48

So as they're trying to figure out, you know, how to do this, many, you know, basically national socialism is the.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:58:57

They are the gurus, the originators of what today we call sustainable development.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:03

So they're trying to blend the growth of industry, the growth of civilization, the growth of the cities, you know, whatever's going on here, with a.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:11

And, of course, farms, too, with nature, how to balance them.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:16

So that's what we call sustainable development.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:19

And really, it's an outgrowth of that conflict that you originally see, for example, in America.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:25

It was already going on in Germany for many.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:26

For a long time.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:27

They debated that kind of stuff for decades.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:30

But with John Muir and Teddy Roosevelt, it becomes americanized.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:35

And so that very interesting distinction, the.

Speaker B 01:59:40

Man who stood up to John Muir about it, his name was Gifford Pinchot.

Speaker B 01:59:43

P I n c h o t.

Speaker B 01:59:45

That those two.

Speaker B 01:59:47

Those two got into it.

Speaker B 01:59:48

Him and John Muir got into it over the Hetch Hetchy dam.

Speaker B 01:59:51

Now, I lived in the Bay area for about ten years.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:53

Oh, okay, I see.

Doctor Mark Musser 01:59:54

Wow.

Speaker B 01:59:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B 01:59:55

So it's relevant to me because I would hear that name all the time.

Speaker B 01:59:58

Of course, John Muir and all the national parks up in that area, and the beautiful natural environment that is northern California.

Speaker B 02:00:07

And these tensions are ongoing with, like, oh, no, we have to do this for the land, and we have to take care of the land.

Speaker B 02:00:16

It's like, well, meanwhile, you have millions of people.

Speaker B 02:00:19

It's like, oh, well, maybe we need depopulation.

Speaker B 02:00:21

And then that's where the venomous side of the green movement of the left comes out, is that nature is so precious that we just have to depopulate the planet to prioritize the existence of nature over man.

Speaker B 02:00:35

And they don't even really see it.

Speaker B 02:00:38

But the point that you make in the book is that that attitude first crystallized during national socialism that we all live with today, leftism, malthusianism, a lot of these ideas that took place in the 1960s that crystallized and first came together, like, well, maybe we can industrialize this extermination process to reduce the population.

Speaker B 02:01:01

That's what shocked me, is that actually was what crystallized, what truly crystallized in national socialism.

Speaker B 02:01:08

First, it chose the Jews as their target, but the Jews was not where it was supposed to end.

Speaker B 02:01:13

So maybe we can talk a little bit about that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:16

Well, really, I mean, I know they talk about the industrial holocaust because of the numbers, but if you look at where these people died, I mean, it was a pretty primitive, you know, situation.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:29

They were in camps.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:30

I mean, this is sort of ignored.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:31

I.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:34

You know, the camps were mostly outdoors.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:36

There wasn't much.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:37

Wasn't much for you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:38

I mean, and they didn't care.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:39

People, you know, basically, the Jews were put in horse barns in Auschwitz, for example, and it wouldn't have been any better anywhere else.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:46

So, you know, I know that this is sort of a.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:50

This is part of the propaganda that goes on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:01:52

They industrialize the Holocaust, and really, they basically destroyed the Jews in very primitive conditions.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:00

I mean, that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:01

That's really the fact of the matter.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:02

And then, of course, they may have used some Zyklon B and things like that, you know, in these.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:09

These camps.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:10

But, you know, it was a very primitive situation for the most part.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:13

But no, I mean, of course, the numbers are high.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:17

So that I have a little bit of debate with that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:19

I mean, I don't think it's the right metaphor to explain, you know, the Holocaust, because it brings up, again, capitalism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:25

Okay, see, it's not the right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:28

The problems are deeper than that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:31

You know, then what is normally sort of another caricature that even though we talk about it all the time.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:38

So I have a little bit of a problem.

Speaker B 02:02:40

I'm open to hearing that.

Speaker B 02:02:41

Yeah, please, please.

Speaker B 02:02:42

You can unpack that.

Speaker B 02:02:43

Please.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:44

Well, I mean, you know, for example, I mean, if you look, if you could.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:49

I visited many of these, many of these death camps.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:54

Now, I've been to Poland a number of times.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:56

I've been to where the Nazis set up these camps.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:02:59

So I've been to Auschwitz a couple of times.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:01

I've been to Belzitz.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:03

I've been to Sobibor, and I've been to Treblinka and also Kilmo, some of the places to.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:10

Just looking at them briefly.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:12

But one of the things you see at these places is this nature preoccupation with nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:18

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:19

That is at the part of the whole Holocaust problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:24

So my metaphor is the oak tree.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:26

And basically my book discusses the oak sacrifice of the judeo christian worldview in the Holocaust.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:33

And of course, the Jews were the primary people that suffered because of this anti biblical worldview.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:39

Going back to Genesis.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:42

I make this case is that the oak tree was something that the Germans have worshiped for many centuries.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:48

And it's not just the Germans.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:49

It's all the druids.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:50

They were the old pagans.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:52

Some people have said druids means men of the oaks.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:03:56

But in the old pagan times, going back to even Old Testament times, okay, even there, you see how people were sacrificed, child sacrificed.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:04

Underneath the oak trees, you have lots of what you would call romanticism going on with regard to nature, fertility of nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:11

How do we have good crops?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:12

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:13

All that kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:14

And this is all, if you look.

Speaker B 02:04:17

On people, see, what is this?

Speaker B 02:04:19

The Der Sturmer, the fumigating the oaks from the rats with the.

Speaker B 02:04:25

If you look on camera, everyone can see that with the nazi armband, like, yeah, oak was.

Speaker B 02:04:30

It was a big part of that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:31

That's in 1927.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:33

So that that political cartoon was made in 1927.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:36

And of course, they were gonna.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:38

They were going to save the oak tree by killing the jewish rats.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:42

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:43

With.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:43

With poison.

Will Spencer 02:04:45

That's right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:46

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:47

This is 1927.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:48

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:48

So now that's exactly what you see where you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:51

When you go to Auschwitz.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:52

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:53

I'm still.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:54

I'm trying to ferret this out, and I just don't have the time to run this down.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:04:57

But I've seen photographs, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:00

And even today, you look at some of these 1944 flyover photographs, okay, that they took.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:06

And they have a picture of Auschwitz, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:08

And then you have, on both sides you have the gas chambers, okay, where the Jews were killed.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:15

But strangely enough, the gas chambers here were underground at Auschwitz, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:20

Now in between them, you can see there's a big green tree there and it's huge.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:26

Has to be an oak tree.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:28

And I, and I want to, I want to run down, who are these architects that built this, you know, Auschwitz.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:34

And really, I mean, really, what are.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:35

What were their worldviews?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:36

Okay, because that Der Sturmer cartoon, you could almost.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:42

That's exactly what I think was going on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:45

Auschwitz in the sense we all were killing the Jews, the jewish rats, with poisonous.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:49

And here's that oak tree in between these two gas chambers, okay, that are there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:53

And what are they doing?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:56

They're using rat poison, okay, to kill the Jews.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:05:59

I mean, that's almost like a prophetic political cartoon.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:02

Not even a cartoon, but it's gaslighting what's going on here.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:06

So you see that imagery.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:08

There's oak trees, a number of them, giant oak trees.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:11

You go into Auschwitz there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:12

The main camp.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:14

Big oak tree has been there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:15

It's the one, that one tree you see that is famous for it, that it's an oak tree.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:20

The Nazis loved the oaks.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:21

Hitler loved oak trees.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:23

They all did.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:23

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:24

And of course, what comes out of oak trees are acorns.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:27

And we won't talk about our previous president a while back.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:30

That was all involved in acorn a while back.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:33

But anyway, they love the oak trees.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:38

And so Hitler had oak trees planted all over the Reich.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:41

They planted them all over Poland, even on his birthday.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:46

They would do like a special oak planting day for planting of oaks at Belzitz.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:53

There are oak trees all over the place there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:56

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:56

The same.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:57

I was at Sobibor.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:06:59

The same was true of Sobibor.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:01

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:01

You can make the argument that this is also part of the landscape, but I think it's more than that because of the nazi world.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:07

I mean, they, they're using the.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:09

The oak sacrifice of the Jews to help them get better.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:12

We get rid of the Jews and our world is going to be a sustainable, better future.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:17

And so we have to make the sacrifice underneath the oak trees.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:22

This is my view.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:23

I know people, but I think that's the proper metaphor for this.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:26

People get mad at me, criticize me.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:28

Look, I understand, but we have to look at this imagery more seriously than we are because of the beliefs of the Nazis.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:35

And it may be a hard sale, but it's what I believe as I've read through this stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:41

One of the things also that's sad was some of these death camps, like, I'm not sure about Treblinka.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:47

So before which one it was, I think may have been both of them.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:50

But after the Nazis got done killing the Jews in these camps, actually, they finished the job of killing the Jews in Poland.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:07:59

For the most part, people don't realize.

Speaker B 02:08:00

That, but they actually did it mean operation Reinhardt, right?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:03

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:03

Yes.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:04

So one of the things they did after they were done, they planted lupins on top of the graves of the jewish people.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:11

Now, lupins are what?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:13

They're woolflowers, and they're, you know, Lupine.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:15

Lupin.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:16

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:17

So.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:18

And by the way, Hitler would call his Nazis the SS, his pack of wolves, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:25

And they, you know, the.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:27

Yes.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:28

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:28

And so you look at all the names of the, you know, the german tanks, okay, the tigers, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:33

You know, okay, you have the panthers, okay, you know, this kind of stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:37

You have, of course, the wolf pack.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:40

That would be the submarines, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:42

They named them after these predators.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:44

And so.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:45

And Hitler loved wolves.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:46

That was his favorite animal.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:47

In fact, Nazi Germany was the first country in the world to protect wolves, and they didn't have any wolves.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:53

So it was very interesting that they wanted to do that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:08:57

But, you know, and so this nature discussion has to be a part of the Holocaust, because the reason why people.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:07

How did these men become like.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:08

Treat people like animals?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:10

Okay, well, it's because of their nature based ethos in which reason is now diminished.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:16

The human will is now diminished.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:18

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:18

The Nazis made it too far to will, so it became like a monster, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:22

And so.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:23

And it's without any judeo christian ethics, without God.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:26

There's no God on the outside that's going to punish us for anything that we've done, so we can do what we want, and yet it's going to be according to nature's laws, which has its own restrictions and its own religion, so to speak.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:40

And so this was the plan.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:43

And we're going to use the laws of nature, which is biology and social darwinism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:48

We're going to enhance basically evolution to help us grow.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:53

And of course, by the way, this is what all of our Google people are doing the same thing to us today, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:57

We call it AI.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:09:59

Basically, it's a eugenics.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:01

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:01

And the eugenics they're talking about today makes the Nazis look primitive, but it's all pretty much the same idea.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:10

Sustainable development, environmentalism, technology and all these things trying to be blended together into a holistic one.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:19

And by the way, my inter.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:21

My definition of fascism is holism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:25

That's what it means.

Speaker B 02:10:27

Say more about that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:28

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:29

By the way, Hitler's fascism definition, he actually says what it is and people ignore this.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:37

He says fascism is a spontaneous return to the traditions of Rome.

Speaker B 02:10:43

Where did he say that?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:45

1941.

Speaker B 02:10:48

A spontaneous return.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:50

Well, I mean, this is the meaning.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:51

Meaning that it's like, it's like he.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:54

And he also made comments.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:55

If we get rid of the Jews, then the world's going to go back to its natural order.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:10:58

It's like spontaneously.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:00

We'll go back to its natural order.

Speaker B 02:11:02

That's right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:03

So these are goofy ideas.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:05

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:05

And.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:06

But you have to.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:07

This is what they believed, and we need to take them more seriously than we do.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:11

We kind of look at him.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:12

Well, how could a guy believe that?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:14

Well, he did, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:15

And it wasn't just him.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:16

It was many people.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:17

And the academics, many academics did, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:20

So, for example, that riel, that forester, the biology forester guy, okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:26

I mean, he was very anti semitic.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:27

And, you know, we could talk all day about, you know, his strange ideas about the Jews.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:11:32

Okay, yes.

Speaker B 02:11:35

Well, so I think that the important thing that you've surfaced in the book is not just obviously that they were anti semitic and that they hated the.

Will Spencer 02:11:43

Jews, it's that they regarded the Jews.

Speaker B 02:11:44

As a stain on nature.

Speaker B 02:11:46

It wasn't the Jews as such.

Speaker B 02:11:48

It was that they had a nature based religion, a nature based worldview.

Speaker B 02:11:52

And they saw the Judeo christian meaning actually going back to Genesis as a stain on perfect, flawless nature with its dominion mandate.

Speaker B 02:12:03

That specifically the dominion mandate to fill the earth and subdue it was an affront to their nature based religion.

Speaker B 02:12:10

So they had to exterminate the Jews who were propagating that idea.

Speaker B 02:12:14

That was actually the root of the whole thing, not simply some sort of anti semitism as such.

Speaker B 02:12:20

It was.

Speaker B 02:12:21

They hated that idea and the propagators of it, who happened to be both Jews and Christians.

Speaker B 02:12:27

And so the reason why you subtitled your book this oak sacrifice of the Judeo christian worldview is that it was both persecuting Jews and Christians differently, but they could persecute the Jews more overtly than they could the Christians, because the Christians were, as I understand, a bigger voting block.

Speaker B 02:12:43

So they had to be more careful with how they handled the Christianity aspect.

Speaker B 02:12:47

But it was a full, all out assault on a biblical worldview coming from a nature based religion that we don't really understand today.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:12:55

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:12:55

And that nature based religion is with us very deeply in our own society.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:12:59

The propaganda is very deep.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:00

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:00

So it's there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:02

So here's just a few.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:03

Here's a few quotes from Riel, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:05

And he goes back to the 18 hundreds.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:07

And he was.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:08

Professor, okay, if in this scheme, the rootless Jews was a purveyor of this corrupted, citified society, the forester was his antithesis, the embodiment of ethnic authenticity, rooted, like his trees, in the ancient earth of the fatherland.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:24

So the Nazis compared themselves to the forest.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:26

People were like trees.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:28

You see, you're blending with nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:30

And that's what the Nazis held.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:32

But many germans did even before then, before they came to power.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:36

Here's another where LaRGE numbers of jews, same man quoting, reside.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:41

The population as a whole is almost always politically and economically fragmented.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:46

See, agAin, there's the anti holism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:47

The Jewish huckster finds that his paltry capital circulates much more freely among the urbanized and small town burghers, central Germany, than among the authentic peasants of the mountains or the plains.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:13:59

So these are just a couple of quotes, but it reveals his attitudes about, you know, about the Jewish people and their anti nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:09

Now, here's Arthur Schopenhauer, who was before riel.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:13

Notice here, we owe the animals not mercy, but justice.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:17

And there's a lot of environmental, social justice going on right now.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:21

And what does he mean by that?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:22

Well, and the debt often remains unpaid in Europe, the continent that is permeated with Jews.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:30

It is obviously high time in Europe that the Jewish views on nature should be expelled from Europe.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:38

So then there were there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:39

We have expelled, not exterminated.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:41

But I think it was Kant that actually set the term, used the term, you know, exterminated.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:46

And he didn't mean the jewish person.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:48

He's talking about their idea.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:49

The fault lies with the jewish view that regards the animal as something manufactured for man's use.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:55

So there's, again, Arthur Schopenhauer.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:14:57

These are the effects of Genesis one and generally of the whole jewish way of looking at nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:03

So, I mean, you know, it's something pretty deep.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:05

And this is something which basically, I read books about that same idea being basically targeted against christians.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:14

So he target against the Jews.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:16

Later on they'll use it against Christianity as well.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:19

You know, the Nazis, for example, believe that the Christianity was just sort of a way to.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:26

It was just another form of Judaism.

Speaker B 02:15:29

So, I mean, an international form of Judaism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:32

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:32

So at some point, I mean, they were going to come after the christians, too, and they already did.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:37

They tried to circumvent their churches.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:39

They did lots of things.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:40

You can read all about it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:41

If you look at the newspaper, some of the things that went on, they were trying to change the doctrines.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:47

They kind of backed off a little bit because the church resisted.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:15:50

But again, too many christians went along with this, that type of stuff.

Speaker B 02:15:57

You quoted a book, the Swastika against the cross.

Speaker B 02:16:01

And for listeners, there's going to be a giant list of resources in the show notes and a shopping list on Amazon where you can find all of these books.

Speaker B 02:16:10

But this is the statistics that Walker cites in his book.

Speaker B 02:16:18

In 1920 alone, more than 300,000 people formally resigned from the christian faith.

Speaker B 02:16:23

During the years from 1918 to 1931, 2.4 million evangelical Christians formally renounced their faith, as well as almost half a million Catholics.

Speaker B 02:16:34

After the First World War, Protestants were formally abandoning Christianity at an average rate of 186,000 per year, and Catholics at a somewhat lower level, between 62% and 80% of Germans who were nominally christian when Hitler came to power had stopped taking communion.

Speaker B 02:16:50

So there was just an evacuation of Christianity as well from National Socialist Germany in the years before.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:01

Yes, no, I'm either.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:03

Whatever's going on, you can debate the numbers.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:05

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:06

But there's no question that clearly we have a nominalization of Christianity going on that helped to lead to this government that was very destructive.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:18

And so that nominal nature of the christian faith that we used to see in our own country is kind of.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:25

It's almost gone now.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:27

That had really no resistance against anything that was going on with regard to the national socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:33

So.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:33

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:34

That's a huge problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:36

So as they criticize the Bible, the higher criticism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:39

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:40

And then eventually what you have is a situation where nominalism takes over, and then with nominalism, there's going to be no opposition to any kind of religious opposition to what these men did.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:17:52

Yes.

Speaker B 02:17:53

Can you talk a little bit about the Barman declaration and Karl Barth?

Speaker B 02:17:56

Obviously, we know the name of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but the barman declaration was something that I hadn't heard of before.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:03

Oh, right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:03

I mean, you know, this was something which.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:05

Yeah, they were men that were trying to.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:09

They realized that this is very serious.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:11

And, you know, the Nazis were anti Christians, so they put together, they got together like a declaration, wherever, you know, we will.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:20

You know, Christianity is.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:22

Belongs to Christ, not to the Fuhrer.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:24

And so, you know, they basically signed a document.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:26

You have Karl Barth.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:28

Was there a number of, you know, other men, too, that we don't know anything about today because the history books have, you know, they've just kind of been forgotten.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:37

But they signed it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:38

And there was some opposition there that showed that we don't, you know, agree with what the Nazis are doing.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:44

However, you could also point out that they weren't.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:46

These guys were not too concerned about the Jews.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:49

Okay, so it's a problem, you know, in that sense.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:53

But still, right, there was some opposition.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:18:56

And the truth of the matter is that the only real group that opposed the Nazis were the Christians.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:03

Say more than that, and that's not.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:05

That's ignored.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:06

I mean, yeah, you can sit and criticize your church all day long.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:08

I do today, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:10

But at the end of the day, the only real group that resisted national socialism the most were the Christians, like.

Speaker B 02:19:17

Through the Barman declaration or through other parts of the church.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:21

I'm just talking in general.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:19:22

That's just one indication, like one little snapshot of the opposition to the National.

Speaker B 02:19:28

Socialists I did see.

Speaker B 02:19:30

So one of the other books that I read to get ready for this interview is called Black sun by Nicholas Goodrich Clark Goodrich Clarke, which is about the neo nazi ideologies that formed after World War Two.

Speaker B 02:19:43

So if your book talks about the days leading up to the decades and years leading up to National Socialism, and then during this, picks up the story of where the ideology went afterwards.

Speaker B 02:19:57

And I think it was in this book that I read about the Rosenstrasse protest, stuff like that.

Speaker B 02:20:01

But there was actually, like, pushback from Christians on Nazi Germany because they were trying to nazify Christianity.

Speaker B 02:20:09

It wasn't biblical Christianity.

Speaker B 02:20:11

It was nazified Christianity.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:12

Well, they believed in an aryan Jesus.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:14

I mean, you know, it's just.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:17

It's just foolish stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:18

I mean, and so, but this is.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:20

This is the so called positive Christianity that the Nazis emphasized.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:24

They called it positive Christianity because they were in charge of it and they believed in a harry and Jesus.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:29

So again, it has nothing to do with, you know, what we consider to be biblical Christianity.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:35

But what you have to realize is that, you know, many of the ideas we have in our secular world today, they come from the Bible.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:42

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:42

They've just been secularized.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:44

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:45

So you can sit there and show how many secular ideas, even today, okay, are rooted in biblical thinking.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:51

And you say, well, so therefore you're a Christian.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:54

Well, see, that's what they're doing with Nazis.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:20:57

But so they're very unforgiving with regard to Nazis when they make those types of statements that seem to be christian and it's borrowed from Christianity, but it's been secularized into their own worldview.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:09

Well, the socialists do this all the time, and everybody's forgiving all the time for all the things that they have done.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:14

Yet they don't call themselves christians.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:16

So I think that that's the better way to look at what's going on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:19

You can show how, for example, global warming, okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:23

Is an apocalyptic worldview.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:24

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:25

The Bible talks about global warming coming, too, during the, you know, during the book of revelation, it's going to get hot.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:31

You know, God's going to torch the planet and cleanse the planet.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:33

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:35

We have date setters now with environmentalists are predicting the end of the world.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:38

We've got, you know, five years, ten years, you know, whatever it is, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:42

So they are taking biblical, the biblical apocalypse, and they're converting it into politics, are converted into so called science, you know, all the things you need to do to get ready for the end.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:55

The environmental movement itself is a very apocalyptic worldview.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:21:58

I mean, they're always worried about the end of the world.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:00

It seems like the flooding of all the snow is going to melt.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:04

The earth is going to flood.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:05

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:05

And so they're all concerned about the end of the world type of ideas, even Marxism and socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:11

That progressive view of history goes back to the Bible, where we have the Old Testament and the New Testament, and that which is latest is best.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:18

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:18

Progressivism is rooted, okay, in a biblical thinking.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:23

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:23

Does that mean that progressivists are christians?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:25

The answer is no.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:27

See, but they're borrowing from the Bible, so they don't tell you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:22:32

When they don't, yeah, they secularize it into their own, you know, this world view of it all.

Speaker B 02:22:39

I think I have a note written somewhere in the book that what many of these philosophical streams did was they took christian ideas and they separated God from them.

Speaker B 02:22:50

They separated Christianity from them, cut them out, and then it becomes very toxic and very destructive.

Speaker B 02:22:56

Like, yes, we're supposed to care for nature, but if you care for nature without it being a divinely ordained command, if you just care for nature, then nature is obviously bigger than you.

Speaker B 02:23:06

So you worship nature.

Speaker B 02:23:07

It's like, no, we care for nature because we're supposed to be stewards of it.

Speaker B 02:23:12

Not that we are part of nature in some fragile web.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:15

For example, for many of these guys, Hitler was a pantheist.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:19

I mean, nature was just God.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:20

I mean, that's right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:22

And this is his worldview.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:24

And so when he talks about God publicly in his speeches, it may sound sort of christian, but what he means bye by the Lord is basically this pantheistic God that he is going to be a man that's going to be used by the pantheistic God to bring about the millennium, the millennial Reich.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:43

Okay, well, that's another distortion of the apocalyptic worldview of christians, where we have many christians believe in the millennium, a thousand year rule of Jesus Christ on the earth.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:54

So what do the Nazis do?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:56

They had a thousand year Reich.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:57

Okay?

Speaker B 02:23:58

That's right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:23:58

And so there you have that same progressivism, you know, worldview from beginning to end, and there's going to be an end.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:05

And with our plan, we get rid of the Jews, and we arrive in Utopia this side of the grave.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:10

Socialism, okay, communism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:12

We arrive at communism, we arrive at a classist society this side of the grave.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:16

It's utopia.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:17

It's kingdom of God on the earth, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:19

It's the same eschatological framework.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:23

Socialism is more milder, but still, it's the same idea today.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:27

They call them the Millennium development goals, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:31

I mean, it's all the same stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:33

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:34

And they're borrowing from Christianity and yet the Bible, and yet they get rid of the stuff they don't like, but they keep the, you know, the so called husk of what's left over.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:43

Then they fill in the husk with their own ideas.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:46

And those ideas are always, according to us, our own thinking, this world only.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:52

So they just kind of get rid of anything transcendent, and they keep within their own circle of life the holism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:24:58

And then nothing can interfere.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:00

They don't want God to interfere into their lives.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:05

That's the bottom line.

Speaker B 02:25:07

You mentioned Hitler's public speeches where he said what sound like relatively christian things, more or less.

Speaker B 02:25:15

But when you put those into the context of the totality of german intellectual thought leading up to national socialism and in the context of the people that were around him, in the context of the actions and the things that they named, the things that they named various aspects.

Speaker B 02:25:30

So, you know, like the wolfs and panthers.

Speaker B 02:25:32

And I think you even cited that they handed out oak saplings to the medal winners at the Olympics.

Speaker B 02:25:38

Like, you talked about the oak symbolism.

Speaker B 02:25:40

And when you put that into context.

Speaker B 02:25:42

Go ahead, please.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:43

Yeah, no, they.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:44

Hitler.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:45

I mean, not Hitler himself, but they handed out oak trees to all the gold medal winners of the Olympics.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:51

Jesse Owens walked home with four and.

Will Spencer 02:25:55

Addition to his medals.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:56

Yeah, a couple of those trees are still around.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:58

I mean, they're, you know, they're.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:25:59

I think one of one is in Ohio, I think.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:02

I can't remember exactly, but, yeah, so, yeah, they.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:05

Glenn Morris was another guy that, you know, I think he won a gold medal and he went home with one.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:10

And so, yeah, I mean, they believed there's something, you know, something spiritual about them.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:16

Oak trees, which goes back to pagan times.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:18

I mean, basically, my view is that national socialism was a like a baelistic fertility cult brought up to date, dressed up in science, but it's the same stuff.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:29

So, yeah, how do we make nature fertile so, you know, so that, you know, things are good from a human point of view?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:36

And.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:37

And so bael ism what, you know, that's what they did.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:39

They sacrificed people to a certain extent, maybe not all the time, but to some extent.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:43

And they had their own ethics based on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:45

You treat your body harshly.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:47

The Nazis were into that, too, so that we can give fertility to nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:26:52

And there may be different ways on how to do that, and people may argue about different ways, how to do that, but that basically the same ideas, that framework is still there.

Speaker B 02:27:03

So I'd like you to speak into something specifically.

Speaker B 02:27:05

So we all grew up.

Speaker B 02:27:07

I certainly did, believing that the Nazis were the manifestation of what Christianity was ultimately about, that Christianity, nationalism and capitalism all came together in the Holocaust, this terrible thing.

Speaker B 02:27:22

And so we must do away.

Speaker B 02:27:23

I think I probably believed this on some level.

Speaker B 02:27:26

We must do away with capitalism, nationalism and Christianity because of the horrors.

Speaker B 02:27:30

Right.

Speaker B 02:27:31

Okay.

Speaker B 02:27:31

And so that idea is just kind of out there in the world, which is why people who are on the right wing and who are nationalists in a good way often get called Nazis.

Speaker B 02:27:41

Like, those two things fit together.

Speaker B 02:27:44

So a lot of people have done a lot of work.

Speaker B 02:27:46

Christians have done a lot of work unwinding those ideas to understand that.

Speaker B 02:27:50

No.

Speaker B 02:27:51

And I think this conversation will have helped them a lot of.

Speaker B 02:27:53

No, the Nazis were not about these things.

Speaker B 02:27:57

But on the right wing now, there's a rising movement to reframe Hitler as the so called christian prince, that Hitler was Christian.

Speaker B 02:28:06

He was defending the white race against the Jews, and the whites are the proper inheritors of Christianity and all of these different things.

Speaker B 02:28:13

So rather than painting Hitler as Christian and being a bad thing, which is what the left has done for years now, there's an attempt to paint Hitler as Christian and to have that be a good thing.

Speaker B 02:28:23

And so I wonder if you can speak into that for a moment from the knowledge that you have encapsulated in the book and your other studies as well.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:31

Well, I guess, in some sense, my entire book has tried to illustrate why people thought that what the fear was doing was a good thing.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:40

And you don't think about it when you're there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:42

It's easy to sit back in hindsight and criticize it when you're actually living through it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:47

A lot of people did not recognize the problems, and.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:51

And they just simply went along with it, and they didn't realize how bad it was.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:54

And I think a lot of things right now are going on that are very, very similar where.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:58

Where things are headed.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:28:59

I could be wrong.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:00

I hope I'm wrong.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:01

I pray I'm wrong.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:01

But right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:02

I mean, when you're in the middle of it, you can't see it, and then.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:05

Then you look back on it, and then, of course, you can project your own views on that type of stuff as well.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:10

So, I mean, that happens to.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:13

But again, this idea that Hitler is a madman, it just comes out of nowhere and takes over the country, like Germany.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:19

And then we have this world War two and the Holocaust.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:22

I mean, it takes a lot of things to enable that to happen, and there's a lot of building process in order to bring that about.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:33

So that's kind of what my book deals with, the history behind it to where.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:37

How did it metastasize something like this?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:39

You simply don't see books like this today.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:41

I mean, they're not about national Socialism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:44

They just don't entertain it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:29:46

And the other thing that I haven't got into that we could talk about is that how, you know, really, today, Germany, really, sadly, strangely, I mean, you can talk about how unusual it is, but up to maybe 40, 50% of all the books published in America are owned by two german conglomerates.

Speaker B 02:30:09

I saw.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:10

Yeah.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:11

Bertelsmann and Holtzbrink.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:13

And both of these companies, I mean, all the.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:16

Many of the big names you can think of today, they're owned by these two companies, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:20

And both of these companies were nazi companies in the 1930s.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:23

They were producing propaganda.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:25

They've had to make so called statements about this and that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:29

But, see, I mean, the whole point is that everybody was a Nazis, see?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:33

And it was only after very few people opposed it as a.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:37

As a group.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:38

Only the Christians were probably the most prominent group of all that did it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:42

You had individuals here and there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:44

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:44

But people, most people just went along with it because they didn't.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:47

They didn't see the problem.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:30:50

And this is always without a biblical worldview, you're not going to see the problem.

Speaker B 02:30:58

Okay.

Speaker B 02:30:58

That was another thing that I walked away with.

Speaker B 02:31:00

I'm glad that you mentioned that.

Speaker B 02:31:01

I had forgotten about this.

Speaker B 02:31:02

That was another thing from the book that I walked away with, was the idea that there are similar conditions in the christian church today.

Speaker B 02:31:12

It sounds like, in some ways, to pre national socialist Germany, where you have people walking away from a biblical worldview where they're susceptible to many different winds of doctrine.

Speaker B 02:31:26

There's a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, a lot of disappointment, a lot of open evil, a lot of open evil, sexual evil, war, all the stuff.

Speaker B 02:31:36

And you have this evacuation of the biblical worldview.

Speaker B 02:31:39

And so there's kind of this vacuum left for a lot of american evangelical christians.

Speaker B 02:31:45

And that really struck me.

Speaker B 02:31:47

It's like there are some.

Speaker B 02:31:48

And you have this.

Speaker B 02:31:49

You have a kind of environmental vision that's kind of propagating out there, and you have the targeting of an other.

Speaker B 02:31:55

You have the saying, this is happening on Twitter every day now you have this targeting of another.

Speaker B 02:31:59

So it really does feel like I'm the last person in the world to say something like this.

Speaker B 02:32:04

It really does actually feel like what you described 1930s Germany was like.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:11

Well, today, I mean, like I said earlier, I mean, things are primitive compared to what we have now.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:19

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:20

I mean, so, I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, we're being surrounded by lots of, you know, propaganda these days.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:27

It's very thick.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:28

And so they were the, you know, they really some of the primary originators of propaganda.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:34

There's, you can talk about yellow.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:36

Yellow journalism, what we call yellow journalism.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:39

You know, a lot of german influences in media go back a long ways, and they helped to propagate that, too.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:46

They played a significant role, maybe not the only, but they did play a significant role.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:50

So Germany has always been interested in what some scholars call soft power, and that's media.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:32:57

And if you look at, you know, some of the most important things that have happened in our world in the 20th century, Marxism, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:04

That that was born where it was born in Germany, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:08

Hegel's philosophy of history, where, you know, that basically still dominates our world today.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:13

Okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:13

That was born where it was in Germany.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:15

Kant's theological nominalism, okay?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:20

That now that basically, we call later theological liberalism, which, you know, is still around us to some extent, but basically that was also in Germany.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:30

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:30

You have, of course, the national socialism was also in Germany.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:34

Some of the biggest names.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:36

Bible critics.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:36

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:37

Of course, Nietzsche.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:38

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:38

Heidegger.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:39

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:39

These are very big names.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:41

And strangely enough, many, most of the majority of them are from Germany.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:47

And these names help to propagate this worldview that his anti God, anti transcendence, first of all.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:54

So the God they believe is a God that's not transcendent.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:33:57

He may be semi transcendent, but he's not fully transcendent.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:34:01

A lot of pantheism, a lot of romanticism, existentialism is there to use these big terms.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:34:07

Basically, it's this world alone and no outside God interference into our lives.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:34:13

And we could give a big list of names of german scholars, academics who contributed, contributed to all of this.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:34:22

It's a big one.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:34:23

And there's no other country in the world you can even come close to those kind of names to have such, so much influence.

Speaker B 02:34:30

You said something interesting earlier.

Speaker B 02:34:32

How would it be possible for the best educated country in the world to do the things that National Socialist Germany did?

Speaker B 02:34:42

And it's funny because you can actually see that, yes, the best educated country in the world was able to pull off essentially an economic miracle coming out of world War two and the Weimar Republic and all of that to gear back up for another war.

Speaker B 02:34:55

I mean, it was a very quick transition to go from the conditions they were and to be able to fight another war at least as well as they did.

Speaker B 02:35:02

Yes, there's some truth to that.

Speaker B 02:35:04

Yes, there was a lot of innovation that came out of that time, but there was also a lot of darkness.

Speaker B 02:35:08

There was also quite a bit of evil.

Speaker B 02:35:10

And that evil had precedence with the attempt for 150 years prior to divorce various ideas from a biblical worldview and watch them become toxic in the process.

Speaker B 02:35:23

So the further a nation, even an educated nation, drifts away from goddess, the more dangerous it gets, because you have these unmoored ideas that then take shape in the form of technology, science, politics, economics, that really intelligent people can take good ideas, divorce from the biblical worldview, and make the ideas into something very, very dangerous.

Speaker B 02:35:45

And I think that's kind of what you've articulated.

Speaker B 02:35:48

That's not the way that we're used to thinking right now.

Will Spencer 02:35:52

The idea that, of course, the best.

Speaker B 02:35:54

Educated people are, they're naturally going to be the.

Speaker B 02:35:55

The best, the most moral people.

Speaker B 02:35:57

Like, no, that's absolutely not true.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:00

I mean, the worst of the worst during the Holocaust were the doctors.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:05

Yeah, I mean, you can sit there on cancer.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:09

I mean.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:09

I mean, there's a.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:10

And what they did with say is very interesting.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:12

The Nazis had all kinds of rules and regulations with regard to animal cruelty and animal, you know, vivisection and experiments on animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:21

But they turn the Jews into experimental animals during the Holocaust.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:25

I mean, so they're right there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:27

You got a huge, huge discussion we can have.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:29

And if you value nature over man, at some point, you're gonna start treating people like animals.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:37

For example, on some of these trains, okay, that they sent the Jews on this is part of the reason why I'm a little bit skeptical using the metaphor in industry, okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:36:49

One of the most famous documentaries made about the Jewish Holocaust was it's all about the trains and showing trains going back and forth.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:00

So they made a big deal out of how it's like these trains are almost evil.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:04

It's like blaming guns when people are killed.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:08

It's a very superficial answer.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:10

The problems are much deeper than this.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:12

You have to answer the question, why were they using the trains to do what they were doing?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:16

Why?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:16

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:16

Why was the guy using the gun to do what he was doing?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:19

And in our existential world or postmodern world, we don't ask those questions anymore.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:23

See?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:24

And so it's just.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:26

It's just a.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:27

It's just a real problem with this.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:30

For example, on trains, that you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:32

You would have guys on the same trains, jewish people, stuffed in cattle cars, like cattle.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:39

And how many more can fit in?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:40

Well, one more.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:41

You.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:41

You know, okay, but on the same trains, you had animals, and they had all these rules and laws about how you had to protect those animals from abuse on the same trains.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:37:54

And so that's the disconnect that anybody who is walking connected to that, working with that, his mind is already gone.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:05

There's no thinking going on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:08

And right now, I'm watching what's going on in our world today.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:11

It's a madhouse.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:12

I mean, I.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:13

And it's just chaos.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:14

And everything I try to do is now just increasing chaos because of the types of things that we like to do and want to do.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:21

But because our world is losing its mind, we're having a hard time just functioning on any kind of normalcy.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:29

So we're watching the world go mad right now, in case you haven't noticed.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:32

I mean, I just.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:33

I'm shocked what's going on and how dumb our world has become very quickly, I mean, to put it, I guess, euphemistically, we could say a lot worse.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:45

I mean, it's just very foolish what's going on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:48

And remember, we have texts in the Bible where it says, God makes war with the wise and he wins.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:55

And you have a passage in Job.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:38:57

Maybe we can conclude with this, because I have to go.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:00

But here's a good passage.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:02

As I have thought about this over the years, Job, chapter twelve.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:07

And we can draw some very interesting conclusions with this, some very important ones.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:11

And of course, Job's in big trouble, right?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:15

But he has some very important things to say.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:18

So, Job, chapter twelve.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:20

We'll start in verse seven.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:21

Let me find the text here.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:25

And then job.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:26

Now finally, and notice it says verse seven.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:29

Here we have the words of Job.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:31

But now ask the beasts and let them teach you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:35

And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:39

Or speak to the earth and let it teach you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:42

And let the fish of the sea declare to you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:45

So there you can learn something from nature.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:47

Right.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:48

What are we learning?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:49

Well, God tells us next verse.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:51

Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:58

So here we have.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:39:59

Even the animals know.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:01

Okay.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:01

Instinctively, God.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:04

A man does too.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:05

He just suppresses that truth.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:06

That's in Romans, chapter one.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:09

Does not the ear test words?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:11

As the palate tastes its food?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:13

So what are your ears for?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:15

To test what's being said then he says, wisdom is with aged men with long life.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:22

Is understanding with him or with him.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:24

That's God or wisdom.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:26

And might to him belong counsel and understanding.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:29

So if you want wisdom and might, if you want counsel and understanding, you have to spend time with, you know, the God of scripture.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:37

Behold, he tears down and it cannot be rebuilt.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:40

He imprisons a man and there can be no escape.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:43

Release.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:44

Behold, he restrains the waters and they dry up.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:46

He sends them out and they inundate the earth.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:49

With him are strength again and sound wisdom.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:53

The misled and the misleader belong to him.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:56

There's quite a phrase.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:40:57

We could unpack and spend a lot of time there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:00

He makes.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:00

Now notice, verse 17.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:02

He makes counselors walk barefoot and makes fools of judges.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:06

We're there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:08

And basically the news you watch the news is just a joke.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:11

I mean, I'm just shocked how stupid it is.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:15

And it's all public and there's no shame, just okay, you know?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:22

And he says here, and loosens the bond of kings and binds their loins of the girl.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:27

He makes priests walk with barefoot and overthrows the secure ones.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:32

He deprives the trusted ones of speech and takes away the discernment of elders.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:37

He pours contempts on nobles and loosens the belt of the strong.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:41

He reveals mysteries from the darkness and brings the deep darkness into light.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:45

He makes the nations great, then destroys them.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:47

He enlarges the nations and leads him away.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:49

He deprives of intelligence, the chiefs of the earths people, and makes them wander in a pathless waste.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:55

They grope in darkness with no light.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:41:58

He makes them stagger like a drunken man.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:01

So as people deny the God of nature, the God who made the world and all things in it, a hardness of heart develops, and that hardness of heart leads to bad things.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:12

And then maybe to those bad things and suffering, people can repent and believe in Christ and all that kind of stuff as we understand it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:21

But then if they don't, the hardness continues to build up, and at the end of the day, the mind is gone.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:27

And so by the time of national socialism, the mind is gone.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:33

And I think we're approaching a similar day if we don't start, put a stop to a lot of things that are going on.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:41

To watch an olympic sport where a guy beats up a girl in round one.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:48

Okay, this is madness.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:42:51

And here we are.

Speaker B 02:42:54

Well, I know that you do have to go.

Speaker B 02:42:56

Maybe you can just let the audience know very quickly.

Speaker B 02:42:59

Amen to all of that, by the way.

Speaker B 02:43:01

Maybe you can let the audience know very quickly the work that you do and where it is that you're headed off to.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:07

Yeah, so we have been missionaries of the former Soviet Union, really, for 25, 30 years.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:12

And I've written a couple of books.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:14

So the one is on nazi ecology, and that was probably my biggest book that I've written.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:18

The hardest book I've written.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:20

I've written another book on the Hebrews warning passages, the book of Hebrews.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:24

There's a big debate about eternal security, losses, salvation, perseverance of the saints.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:28

So I have a big discussion about that.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:30

And that particular book is called wrathful rest.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:33

And so we are home for the summer, and now it's time to go back, go back to our work overseas, and it's been great to be with you and very good discussion.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:44

Thank you for the questions, and maybe we can do it again sometime.

Speaker B 02:43:48

I'd love that, sir.

Speaker B 02:43:50

Thank you very much for your time, your generosity, and God bless your travels.

Speaker B 02:43:54

Traveling mercies to you as you head out on the road.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:43:58

And literally, I'm leaving here in 2 hours.

Speaker B 02:44:01

I know.

Will Spencer 02:44:03

Real quick, where would you like to.

Speaker B 02:44:04

Send people to find out more about you and what you do?

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:11

I have a personal website.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:12

I mean, it's called R.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:13

Markmusser.

Speaker B 02:44:14

So.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:14

Rmarkmuster.com.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:15

it's got some.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:16

I used to do a lot of writing and things.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:18

Things were published here and there on the Internet today.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:21

I just don't have time for it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:23

It's just too many things going on with what we're doing now.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:26

But now we Ararat Rainier east west fellowship.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:29

That's the name of our charity group.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:31

And it's arewf.org.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:36

and so we do work in Armenia, for example.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:40

We've done, of course, we do work at home.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:42

And Mount Rainier is my favorite mountain in Washington state.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:45

And now my new favorite mountain is Mount Ararat, nearby Armenia, right on the border.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:50

You can see from the capital city of Armenia.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:53

We did ministry there for three years, lived there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:55

We still do ministry there.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:44:56

And so we named our charity group the Ararat Rainier east west Fellowship.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:02

And so we do lots of work in the former Soviet Union or as much as we can.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:05

Well, thank you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:06

I appreciate it.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:07

Well, so maybe we'll do it again sometime.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:09

Thank you.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:12

Thanks for listening to this episode of the renaissance of Men Podcast.

Speaker B 02:45:17

Visit us on the web@renofmen.com or on your favorite social media platform, Ren of men.

Doctor Mark Musser 02:45:27

This is the renaissance of men.

Speaker B 02:45:30

You are the renaissance.