Dr. David Edgington, a biblical counselor and author of "The Abusive Wife," joins Will Spencer to discuss the often-overlooked issue of women's sin and the phenomenon of reviling wives, challenging the prevailing narrative that women are exempt from accountability.
The conversation delves into how cultural influences, particularly feminism, have contributed to a widespread reluctance to recognize women's failings in marriage and family dynamics. Edgington highlights the importance of acknowledging that both men and women are equally accountable for their actions, emphasizing that women's sin can manifest in destructive ways, including verbal and emotional abuse.
He encourages a return to biblical principles in counseling, advocating for a balanced approach that holds both spouses responsible for their behavior. The episode ultimately calls for humility, repentance, and the transformative power of Scripture in addressing these deep-rooted issues within relationships.
David Edgington is a pastor, biblical counselor, and the author of “The Abusive Wife.”
Takeaways:
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My name is Will Spencer, and you're listening to the Renaissance of Men podcast.
Will SpencerMy guest this week is a biblical counselor, plus a good friend, brother in Christ, and the author of the Abusive wife.
Will SpencerPlease welcome Dr.
Will SpencerDavid Edgington.
David EdgingtonYou are the Renaissance.
Will SpencerFor the past several generations, evangelicalism has been infected with the idea that women don't sin.
Will SpencerPart of this is due to feminism and what I call the feminist theology, which is the idea that women are cosmic victims of patriarchy and that in order to right historical wrongs, we can never hold them accountable again.
Will SpencerAnother part of this is due to the cultural disparagement of men.
Will SpencerWe see this in the Simpsons, Everybody Loves Raymond and more.
Will SpencerBumbling and buffoonish dads provide adorable comic relief while the capable wife dutifully cleans up behind the scenes.
Will SpencerThe husband does all the wrong and the wife does all the right.
Will SpencerAnd that's just how it is and how it's always been.
Will SpencerBoth of these ideas and more combine to produce the idea that women are saintly, sinless angels under the oppressive thumb of men, either actively through mistreatment or passively through inaction.
Will SpencerAnd so the notions that women sin, women sin against men, and that women sin against men who don't deserve it cannot be tolerated in the public square simply because they're obviously false, right?
Speaker CRight.
Will SpencerThere's just one problem.
Will SpencerWomen do sin, including against men.
Will SpencerWomen have a sin nature, just like men do, and it expresses itself uniquely from men's.
Will SpencerIt also expresses itself in marriage.
Will SpencerYes, men can and do fail as husbands and as fathers.
Will SpencerNo one has had any trouble saying that since at least the 1960s.
Will SpencerBut when you try to suggest that women have their share of failings as wives and as mothers, you're met immediately with shrill pushback.
Will SpencerClearly, it must be the husband's fault.
Will SpencerSomehow, this false secular idea has also crept into evangelicalism and into the pastor's counseling office.
Will SpencerIt seems that in many cases around the country and also the world, the pastors cannot or perhaps will not see that there are situations where the abusive or abandoning partner isn't the husband.
Will SpencerRather, it's the wife.
Will SpencerAnd there's a storm coming.
Will SpencerFeminism has begun its long fall from its cultural and political heights.
Will SpencerAnd with it is coming the realization that in our rush to point fingers and laugh at men, we've missed out on the shared responsibility for an entire sex, women.
Will SpencerAnd that correction is going to be painful, difficult, and a lonely road to walk for all but the most faithful men and women courageous enough to walk it.
Will SpencerWhich brings me to my guest this week.
Will SpencerHis name is Dr.
Will SpencerDavid Eddington, and he's a biblical counselor and the author of the Abusive Wife Ministering to the Contentious Woman.
Will SpencerAnd there are a bunch of key words in that book title.
Will SpencerFirst, the abusive wife.
Will SpencerYes, that is a real phenomenon.
Will SpencerAnd since my podcast with David last year, which has become one of my top 10 most downloaded episodes ever, David has had men reach out to him from around the world, sharing their stories of being abused, often verbally and sometimes even physically, by their wives.
Will SpencerThese are cases that pastors often ignore in their rush to blame the husband.
Will SpencerAnd in case you're tempted to wonder, David sees these couples in person or on zoom and witnesses this behavior firsthand.
Will SpencerIt is not speculation.
Will SpencerThe second keyword in David's book title is ministering.
Will SpencerThis isn't about shame or scorn.
Will SpencerThis is about ministering to a sinful woman's pain, calling her to repentance, and turning her heart towards Christ and her husband.
Will SpencerThis is key.
Will SpencerWe are not talking about a Christian version of red pill finger pointing, rather gentle but firm and loving calls to repentance in Christ for the good of her own soul, not just her marriage.
Will SpencerAnd finally, the contentious woman.
Will SpencerAs we all know, women are less physically powerful than men.
Will SpencerIt's more difficult, though not impossible, for women to abuse their husband's bodies.
Will SpencerInstead, women abuse men by being disagreeable, difficult, argumentative, accusatory, disobedient, vindictive, and cutting with their words.
Will SpencerThese women break men down verbally, and men, being more action oriented, have limited ways to respond and often can't respond at all.
Will SpencerNot in time, anyway.
Will SpencerThese are the cases of men and women that Dr.
Will SpencerEdgington counsels, perhaps one of the only counselors in the entire world who does so.
Will SpencerAnd this is significant because this phenomenon is more widespread than most in the Christian church can imagine.
Will SpencerBut my sense is that very soon we're all going to hear much more about it.
Will SpencerThe pain, shame and hiding is real.
Will SpencerNo man wants to admit that he's the victim of abuse.
Will SpencerAnd yet it's becoming time to talk about it.
Will SpencerMay we all do so with the wisdom, compassion, patience, and Christian heart exemplified by my friend David.
Will SpencerIn our conversation, we discussed the worldwide phenomenon of reviling wives, the infiltration of psychotherapy in the church, the need for men to stand up to women, the trait to look for in a godly wife, cultivating the gift of repentance, how your feelings will lead you astray, and finally, healing through biblical counseling.
Will SpencerIf you enjoy the Renaissance of Men podcast, thank you.
Will SpencerPlease leave us a five star rating on Spotify and a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.
Will SpencerIf this is your first time here, welcome.
Will SpencerI release new episodes about the Christian counterculture, masculine virtue and the family every week.
Will SpencerJust a reminder that many things about this podcast will be changing very soon.
Will SpencerAs you heard me say a couple weeks ago, this podcast will soon become the Will Spencer Podcast.
Will SpencerNew brand, new topics, new guests, same format you love.
Will SpencerThis has been a long time coming and I'm incredibly excited.
Will SpencerI hope you are too.
Will SpencerAnd I hope you won't mind these regular reminders to make sure we all come along together.
Will SpencerAnd so now I'm thrilled to announce the new podcast Substack that is our new community home.
Will SpencerYou can find that link in the show notes.
Will SpencerThere will be free content on the site, including a new article entitled no one Cares about Female Action Heroes and Were right not to, which is about the recent box office failure of the film Furiosa and what I think that has to say about the undeniable differences between men and women.
Will SpencerSo expect more of that.
Will SpencerBut the biggest benefits of the substack will go to paid subscribers who get a number of perks, including early access to ad, free audio and video interviews, previews of my new book, and the new brand of the podcast, lifetime access to my Christian Men's Discord server, and finally, access to a substack only podcast series called Will Spencer Uncensored, where I interview controversial figures that might get me canceled otherwise.
Will SpencerAgain, these interviews will only be available for paying subscribers.
Will SpencerYou won't find them anywhere else.
Will SpencerI'd like you to be a part of all this and more.
Will SpencerThe new substack is available to subscribers for as low as $10 per month.
Will SpencerLadies and gentlemen, the next few months are going to be exciting.
Will SpencerI hope you'll come along, visit willspencerpod.substack.com and be a part of it now.
Will SpencerAnd please welcome this week's guest on the podcast, a pastor and biblical counselor, plus the author of the abusive wife, my friend, Dr.
Will SpencerDavid Edgington.
Speaker CHey David, welcome back to the podcast.
David EdgingtonHey Will, great to see you again.
Speaker CSo in the time since you and I spoke on the show, I guess it was about a year ago, something like that.
Speaker CI've been very blessed to form a friendship with you and so I think that'll probably that ongoing dialogue that's been happening since then will probably show up in the recording maybe once or twice.
David EdgingtonI'm sure, I'm sure it will.
David EdgingtonVery grateful for our friendship.
Speaker CMe as well so maybe fill everybody in on what the past year has been like.
Speaker CBecause you wrote this book, the Abusive Wife, back in.
Speaker CI think it was 2013 when you wrote it, and suddenly it got noticed.
Speaker CAnd you were on five podcasts last year, including mine.
Speaker CAnd so that was a.
Speaker CThat was a big shift.
Speaker CSo.
Speaker CSo catch the listeners up on what that's been like.
David EdgingtonWell, I wrote the Abusive wife back in 2015.
David EdgingtonThat's when it was published.
David EdgingtonAnd so nine years ago now.
David EdgingtonAnd after doing these podcasts last year, including yours, I could never have expected the response that I got.
David EdgingtonI mean, it's been incredible.
David EdgingtonThe number of men that are struggling with the issues that you and I talked about in that first podcast is off the charts.
David EdgingtonAnd I'm not one for hyperbole.
David EdgingtonI'm not one for exaggerating.
David EdgingtonThis is.
David EdgingtonI literally counseled hundreds of families last year on this issue alone.
David EdgingtonAnd the reason that I think that's happening is that no one wants to talk about it.
David EdgingtonNo one wants to acknowledge it.
David EdgingtonNo one wants to even think that it's a thing.
David EdgingtonAnd there are suffering and hurting men.
David EdgingtonThere are women that are bound in this reviling, in bitterness, and they're completely unrepentant about it.
David EdgingtonAnd so, you know, so we struck a nerve when we did the podcast.
David EdgingtonAnd what amazed me will, you know, I'm just a boomer, so I don't understand all the.
David EdgingtonAll this stuff.
David EdgingtonYou know, honestly, Honestly, I wasn't even sure what a podcast was when the first person invited me.
David EdgingtonI'm like, what?
David EdgingtonI think I know what that is.
Speaker CDoes it grow on trees?
David EdgingtonYeah.
David EdgingtonWhat is that?
David EdgingtonIs that the little pods things?
David EdgingtonBut the reach of the podcast, where it has gone literally worldwide.
David EdgingtonI mean, I've counseled people in England, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore.
David EdgingtonI'm just trying to think of Iceland, Turkey, Brazil.
David EdgingtonAll over the world.
David EdgingtonPeople have contacted me because nobody wants to talk about this again.
David EdgingtonNobody wants to believe that this is really even an issue now.
David EdgingtonNobody is hyperbole, but it's very, very few people.
David EdgingtonI would say that probably 90% of the pastors and counselors out there miserably fail with this exact issue.
David EdgingtonAnd that's from talking to so many pastors, too.
David EdgingtonI've talked to many pastors in the past year, many counselors, many no thetic counselors like myself that, you know, I know we've talked about this before, but they not only do not address the problem, they actually blame the man for the problem.
David EdgingtonSo it's a double pain.
David EdgingtonFirst, the man getting all of this reviling in bitterness and hostility and control and rage from his wife.
David EdgingtonAnd these are Christian families.
David EdgingtonThey're not liberal families.
David EdgingtonThey're not families that don't believe the Bible.
David EdgingtonThey're families that say that they believe the Bible.
David EdgingtonSo the men get all of that hostility from their wife and then they go to their church or their counselors, even, so called biblical counselors, new fetic counselors, and they get blamed.
David EdgingtonDoesn't matter how wicked or bad the wife is, the man gets blamed.
David EdgingtonNow the way I handle counseling is I listen to people and I say, okay, the man is in sin, I hold him accountable for the sin.
David EdgingtonIf the wife sends sin, I hold her accountable for the sin.
David EdgingtonBut with the reviling wife, she doesn't want to be held accountable.
David EdgingtonShe actually gets angry when you try to, just as gently as you could, hold her accountable for what?
David EdgingtonFor her behavior, for what she's doing.
David EdgingtonAlways gets blamed on the husband.
David EdgingtonWell, he's abusive, he's toxic, he's, you know, we gotta destroy the patriarchy.
David EdgingtonWe gotta, you know, it's like, this is not what this is about.
David EdgingtonThese men are almost without fault.
David EdgingtonThey're gentle, they're kind, they're loving, they're forgiving.
David EdgingtonThey love their wives, they love their children.
David EdgingtonThey're not, you know, mean, cruel, you know, flexing and saying, you know, you must submit to me.
David EdgingtonThey're not that kind of guy at all.
David EdgingtonAnd this is what's so mysterious about us.
David EdgingtonLike, why, why is there not just that basic discernment to see what's going on?
David EdgingtonWhy aren't people even curious about it and say, it can't be that bad, can it?
Speaker CDo the women who do this, I've got so many questions.
Speaker CDo the women who do this, do they actually say, we have to smash the patriarchy?
Speaker CLike, does that come up?
Speaker CDo they bring that up?
David EdgingtonMany of them do.
David EdgingtonMany of the women do.
David EdgingtonAnd again, we're talking about women that would present themselves as conservative, that they believe the Bible is the word of God.
David EdgingtonThey believe the Bible is what should be preached from the pulpit.
David EdgingtonAnd, you know, they hate Doug Wilson.
David EdgingtonThey hate, you know, anybody that's trying to assert male headship and just simple men leading in their homes, men being the authority in their homes.
David EdgingtonI think what happens will, is that when people hear authority, when they hear leadership, when they hear headship, what a lot of women hear is oppression, domination, cruelty, no freedom, doormat.
David EdgingtonThat's what they hear.
David EdgingtonAnd it's like, that's not what that's not these men.
David EdgingtonNow, there are men like that out there.
David EdgingtonYou and I know, sure, there are men like that out there.
David EdgingtonThere's probably a lot of men like that out there.
David EdgingtonBut there are so many women out there that have just given in to feminism and they don't even realize it.
David EdgingtonI don't think they see it.
Speaker CYeah, they don't because they don't call it feminism.
Speaker CLike that's the thing is I think feminism.
Speaker CI've begun thinking that feminism is the wrong word because when you say the word feminism, people hear a socio political movement, right?
Speaker COh, I'm not a feminist because I'm not part of the socio political movement.
Speaker CBut it's deeper, it's theological.
Speaker CI mean, it's garden stuff.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAs my friends and I say.
Speaker CBut there's no word for what that is.
Speaker CI mean, obviously it's just rebellion.
Speaker CIt's hatred of God that's expressed towards hating.
Speaker CYour desire will be to usurp your husband and he will rule over you.
Speaker CThat's what it is.
Speaker CBut a lot of women are like, that's not me.
Speaker CI'd never do that.
Speaker CIt's like you're doing it right now.
David EdgingtonYeah, no, it's the Genesis 3:16.
David EdgingtonI like the way the ESV translates it, that your desire shall be contrary to your husband and he shall rule over you.
David EdgingtonSo it's contrary to the husband and now he has to rule over her.
David EdgingtonAnd then you look at Genesis, chapter four, the very next chapter with Cain and Abel, and God tells Cain, you have to rule over your sin.
David EdgingtonSin's desire is for you.
David EdgingtonIt's crouching at the door, it's desire for you, but you have to rule over it.
David EdgingtonSo you have to take care of that and say, this is not going to happen.
David EdgingtonI don't want sin to overwhelm me, and so I have to rule over my sin.
David EdgingtonAnd yet the same picture is for the husband and wife, that the wife wants to control the husband.
David EdgingtonAnd the husband says, no, God has given me the rule.
David EdgingtonAnd that's not oppressive.
David EdgingtonIt does not have to be oppressive at all.
David EdgingtonAnd a lot of these men are not as strong as they should be.
David EdgingtonSo I'll say that a lot of these men are more passive than strong leaders.
David EdgingtonBut with the reviling wife, this is such an important point and it's usually missed will.
David EdgingtonWith the reviling wife, it doesn't matter how strong the husband is.
David EdgingtonIt doesn't matter how masculine he is, how tough he is, how assertive he is.
David EdgingtonShe's still Going to rebel because the sin is in her hearts, not in him.
David EdgingtonAnd the example I use with that, because people say, well, if a man will just be strong and masculine, then a woman will submit.
David EdgingtonI know you and I roll our eyes at that a lot.
Speaker CYeah.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonAnd so my response to that is, okay, let's say that that's true.
David EdgingtonI guess Jesus is not masculine enough.
David EdgingtonRight.
David EdgingtonBecause his bride, the church, rebels against him all the time.
David EdgingtonAre we willing to say that.
David EdgingtonThat, you know, it's the man's fault when the wife sins?
David EdgingtonI go, no, it's not.
David EdgingtonNow, in the garden, obviously, Adam was responsible for Eve's sin.
David EdgingtonHe abdicated his leadership because the scripture says that he was with her when that happened.
David EdgingtonBut she carries the blame for the sin.
David EdgingtonShe's guilty of the sin herself.
Speaker CThank you.
Speaker CYes.
David EdgingtonSo that distinction is important and it has to be made because a lot of times it's just, nope, Sky's fault.
David EdgingtonSin entered through Adam.
David EdgingtonSo men are always to blame.
David EdgingtonIt's like, no, no one Timothy 2 talks about Eve was deceived and became a transgressor, so she fell into sin.
David EdgingtonI mean, it's not saying, well, she was sinless.
Speaker CRight.
David EdgingtonWell, that's all we're trying to do.
David EdgingtonWe're just trying to hold men accountable for sin and women accountable for sin.
David EdgingtonAnd I'm not looking for sin.
David EdgingtonI'm not digging in and saying, I gotta find it in you.
David EdgingtonIt's like it's right out in the open.
Speaker CYeah.
Speaker CThere's a book about it, I think.
Speaker CIt's not just your line either.
David EdgingtonAnd a much better book than mine.
Speaker CMuch better.
Speaker CExactly.
Speaker CWell, this is exactly what I run into, is I try and point out women sin, and then the response I get is, women sin.
Speaker CMy line is, women sin.
Speaker CWomen sin against men.
Speaker CWomen sin against men who don't deserve it.
Speaker CAll three of those things are true.
Speaker CI think I did.
Speaker CI think in my how to Find a Church.
Speaker CBecause last year I did an episode, how to Find a Church, and I talked to men who are seeking, probably women, too.
Speaker CLike, you have to ask your pastor, do you agree with these three statements?
Speaker CDo women sin?
Speaker CDo women sin against men?
Speaker CAnd do women sin against men who don't deserve it?
Speaker CBecause if a pastor isn't willing to say an immediate yes to all three of those, don't go to that church.
Speaker CBecause all three of those, and the.
David EdgingtonOther part, too, will you, Pastor, hold that woman accountable for her sin?
Speaker CYes.
Speaker CThat's a great.
Speaker CThat's a great part of it.
David EdgingtonWomen's sin.
David EdgingtonBut I'm not going to do anything about it.
David EdgingtonIt's like, no, you got to do something about it.
Speaker CThat's right.
Speaker CThere's so much here because I've been going around in DMs and on Twitter and stuff like this, about this, you know, about.
Speaker CThere are so many people who will say, I.
Speaker CA woman who will say, like, my father or my pastor was.
Speaker CWas really terrible to me, even.
Speaker CEven assuming that it's true.
Speaker CAnd so when you try and point out that you need to be accountable now, they get all mad.
Speaker CLike, somehow it's that man's fault for your behavior today.
Speaker CLike, it's.
Speaker CThat's not how it works.
Speaker CLike when, when, like, women, when.
Speaker CWhen you die and you face judgment, like, I don't think God's going to say, well, I see you did all these terrible things, but, you know, was your dad mean to you?
Speaker CYou know, asterisk.
Speaker CLike, there's no asterisk.
Speaker CYou're.
Speaker CYou're morally responsible for your.
Speaker CFor your thoughts, words and actions, period.
Speaker CRight?
David EdgingtonYeah.
David EdgingtonAnd I don't.
David EdgingtonI don't want to minimize.
David EdgingtonThis is a whole nother area.
David EdgingtonI know we can go on a lot of tangents on this.
David EdgingtonI don't want to minimize what women have been through, especially in their childhood.
Speaker CLet's talk about this then, please.
David EdgingtonSo what I have found, and I just started seeing this pattern, I go, there's got to be something going on here.
David EdgingtonAs I'm counseling 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 of these husbands and wives.
Speaker CUnbelievable.
David EdgingtonI'm seeing a pattern in the reviling wives.
David EdgingtonAnd of the hundreds of ones that I've counseled, about 80% of those reviling wives had some kind of traumatic experience in their childhood.
David EdgingtonNow, when I say traumatic, I mean that they've been raped, okay?
David EdgingtonThey've been sexually molested, they got an abortion.
David EdgingtonYou know, there's all kinds of things.
David EdgingtonNow, I realize she chose to get the abortion, but sometimes it's a young girl.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, that.
David EdgingtonThat's horrible that she has to go through that.
David EdgingtonAbortion is wicked sin anyway.
David EdgingtonBut, you know, a little girl having to go through it is just horrible.
David EdgingtonSo what happens is that trauma, it's exactly what you described.
David EdgingtonSometimes it doesn't kick in for five, 10, 20 years later, and she just gets full of rage over her husband, who didn't do anything like that to her, didn't have any.
David EdgingtonNothing even remotely like that, but she just gets gripped by this, and she's blinded with that rage.
David EdgingtonNow, again, I have Sympathy and compassion for what she went through as a little girl.
David EdgingtonI go, it's just wicked and horrible that men would do that to little girls.
David EdgingtonBut your point?
David EdgingtonShe has to be held accountable, compassionately held accountable as an adult grown woman who's 40, 50, 60 years old.
David EdgingtonYou can't treat your husband this way.
David EdgingtonIt's wicked.
David EdgingtonIt's godless.
David EdgingtonYou're blaming your husband for something that happened to you as a little girl.
David EdgingtonWell, I'm not blaming him.
David EdgingtonHe's just like my uncle or my father or my brother.
David EdgingtonI'm like, no, he's not.
David EdgingtonBut you're so blinded, you've just got this tunnel vision that that bitterness has set in to that woman's heart.
David EdgingtonStarted as a little girl, but again, it seems like it doesn't manifest until many times decades later, and then she's full on, just hostile and uncontrollable and unaccountable.
David EdgingtonSo, again, you know, we have to have compassion for what these women went through as little girls, but we still have to hold them accountable for what they're doing now and saying, you don't get a pass on this.
David EdgingtonYou really don't, any more than a man does.
David EdgingtonAnd I'll say this, too.
David EdgingtonI see the same thing with men.
David EdgingtonMen that were molested and abused as little boys.
David EdgingtonWhen they become adults, the same thing happens to them.
David EdgingtonThey become uncontrollable, full of rage.
David EdgingtonAnd you go, what's going on?
David EdgingtonWhere did this come from?
David EdgingtonSo this is a big, deep topic, but we have to biblically and compassionately hold people accountable for their sin.
David EdgingtonNobody gets a pass over what they've been through from their past.
Speaker CSo I have a lot of thoughts about this because before I became a Christian, I spent a long time in the new age, which you and I have talked about.
Speaker CAnd the new age world is big on huge.
Speaker CThis might be the most.
Speaker CThe number one draw of it is healing, quote, healing trauma.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAnd now there's all different categories of trauma in terms of the way the word gets used.
David EdgingtonRight.
David EdgingtonI think it's misused, too.
Speaker CYes.
Speaker CCompletely.
Speaker CYeah.
Speaker CAnd if you want to go looking for various offenses that have been committed against you through your whole life, if you frame them that way, you'll find plenty.
Speaker CLike, there's a video going around right now of the women's rage rituals where they're banging the sticks.
Speaker CApparently that retreat costs $4,000, which does not surprise me at all.
Speaker CBut if you tell men or women that there's something in their past to be angry about and to Let it out.
Speaker CThen even if there really isn't a whole ton that we might objectively call terrible or sinful, they'll still find something to be angry about.
Speaker CThere's plenty to be angry.
Speaker CWelcome to earth.
Speaker CAngry sinners hearts, right?
Speaker CSo the heart will manufacture whatever it needs to.
David EdgingtonYou bet.
Speaker CSo, but here's the thing.
Speaker CSo having been in countless retreats and rooms where this is exactly what's going on, and I've been participating in them, so part of this, I look at these things and say, it's not as if these forms of quote unquote trauma are new.
Speaker CIt's not as if prior to the 1960s or 50s, like, no one did anything to harm anyone at all and it was just utopia.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CSo I'm trying to figure out why and what has happened now, because I don't think that it was that way.
Speaker CI mean, I wasn't around in, let's say, the 1800s or the 1700s.
Speaker CLike I wasn't there.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CSo like the boomers.
Speaker CSo I gotta believe that these things were happening.
Speaker CAnd that doesn't make them right at all.
Speaker CThey're still morally wrong, they're still sinful, and in many cases still criminal.
Speaker CBut people managed, it seems to me, to live their whole lives without making what happened to them in their childhood their husband or their wife's problem.
Speaker CLike, yes, of course, all sinners.
Speaker CThere's no papistry going on here.
Speaker CThe heart is not basically good.
Speaker CThat's not what.
Speaker CThat's not what's happening.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSo of course there were criminals.
Speaker COf course there were.
Speaker COf course there were terrible people who through being broken, became broken themselves and went on to pay that forward, let's say.
Speaker CBut it seems to me that terrible things would happen to men and women for centuries, and people understood that.
Speaker CIt's not like, well, this just means I have license now to go treat the man who loves me best like dirt, or the woman who loves me best like dirt.
Speaker CLike, when did trauma become a license?
Speaker CI mean, a license to kill?
Speaker CI mean, in many ways, maybe not murder, but, you know, like, in a way that would, you know, truly be violation of a commandment.
David EdgingtonYou know, what it is, Will, is unbridled psychotherapy.
David EdgingtonYeah, that psycho.
David EdgingtonAnd that's infiltrated the New Age movement and it's infiltrated the church as well, and big time, you know, huge.
David EdgingtonThat's one of the reasons I became a new fetic Counselor, you know, 30 years ago was because of the infiltration of psychotherapy into the church, where it's all about sympathy and feelings.
David EdgingtonAnd now it's a.
David EdgingtonNow it's about compassion on steroids, where you feel so bad for what people have been through that any expression that they give is legitimate.
David EdgingtonAnd this is where.
David EdgingtonYeah, excellent book.
Speaker CJoe Rigby, emotional.
Speaker CI'm interviewing him for the podcast next.
David EdgingtonWeek, scheduled to read that.
David EdgingtonExcellent.
David EdgingtonWell done.
David EdgingtonBut you know, the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.
David EdgingtonYou know, James, chapter one, right?
David EdgingtonSee, ritual anger, just, you know, just going full on with anger is going to make things worse.
David EdgingtonIt's going to harden the heart.
David EdgingtonIt's not going to somehow magically cause all this anger and bitterness to escape and leave the body.
David EdgingtonIt's actually encouraging it to stay in there.
David EdgingtonYou know Ephesians 4 that says, don't let the sun go down on your anger.
David EdgingtonWhat does the very next verse say?
David EdgingtonAnd give no opportunity to the devil, right?
David EdgingtonBecause what happens, you let that anger fester and stay in your heart even overnight.
David EdgingtonThe next morning, the enemy is able to take advantage of that and saying, you've got every right to be angry.
David EdgingtonThese men mistreated you.
David EdgingtonThese people did horrible things to you.
David EdgingtonYou should be angry.
David EdgingtonYou should be full of rage.
David EdgingtonYou should be breaking sticks on the ground, you know, screaming and yelling at your husband.
David EdgingtonYou should be reviling these men.
David EdgingtonThis is a whole nother area too.
David EdgingtonI don't know which tangent you want to go on with this, but all of them, I.
David EdgingtonBut you know, this is another big, big problem is the so called conservative women that have a platform and they're counseling other women.
David EdgingtonAnd yes, I mean, I'm thinking of a number of them.
David EdgingtonI'll name their names.
David EdgingtonLeslie Vernick, Darby Strickland, Sheila Gregor, Kaylee Triller.
David EdgingtonI mean, these women, they actually urge the women into sin, not just divorcing their husbands.
David EdgingtonBut I had an interaction with Kaylee Triller on Twitter and she said, bad men deserve to be reviled.
David EdgingtonShe actually said that.
David EdgingtonShe used the word reviled.
Speaker CShe used the word reviled.
David EdgingtonAnd I said, you're kidding me.
David EdgingtonYou're actually encouraging women to sin?
David EdgingtonOh, you're just twisting scripture.
David EdgingtonI said, no, I'm not twisting scripture.
Speaker CWhat?
David EdgingtonHow can you say that?
David EdgingtonThis is okay.
Speaker COh my goodness.
David EdgingtonDo I really need to point out Jesus was reviled and didn't revile in return?
David EdgingtonI mean, 1 Corinthians 5 and 6, we do church discipline for reviling.
David EdgingtonI mean, do I really have to point all that out?
David EdgingtonIs that.
David EdgingtonAnd you know, it's just the men are so Evil.
David EdgingtonWe have to hurt them verbally.
David EdgingtonYou know, we have to do this, and we gotta basically burn down the marriage.
David EdgingtonAnd so, you know, you've got women like this, and there's a bunch of them.
David EdgingtonThese women have a huge following, and you've got a bunch of them.
David EdgingtonAnd then you got pastors and counselors that have been so feminized and they don't even realize it.
David EdgingtonSo they're supporting these women.
David EdgingtonIt's a recipe for disaster.
David EdgingtonIt's a train wreck in the making.
David EdgingtonAnd so you've got this momentum that is building and building.
David EdgingtonAnd in the Meantime, it's Proverbs 14.
David Edgington1 the wisest of women builds her house, but with her own hands, she tears it down.
David EdgingtonThat's what these women are, tearing it down.
David EdgingtonI don't love you.
David EdgingtonI don't care for you.
David EdgingtonI don't want you in my life.
David EdgingtonI've got one.
David EdgingtonI counseling one right now.
David EdgingtonAnd the wife said, I don't want to be married to this man anymore.
David EdgingtonI just want a partnership to raise the children.
Speaker CWow.
David EdgingtonAnd the man is not, you know, the man is like I described before.
David EdgingtonHe's gentle, he's kind, he's sweet, he's loving.
David EdgingtonHe's.
David EdgingtonHe's probably too passive.
David EdgingtonHe's not too aggressive.
David EdgingtonHe's not an angry man.
David EdgingtonAnd you go, where is this coming from?
David EdgingtonWhat's happening to the women of our society?
David EdgingtonAnd why are the men not doing something about it?
David EdgingtonThat's what's so concerning to me.
David EdgingtonI know that you're doing a lot about it.
David EdgingtonYou've been doing a lot about it.
David EdgingtonBut I know the average man that has any kind of a platform, it's just staying quiet.
David EdgingtonBecause once you speak out, you get a lot of hate, don't you?
David EdgingtonYou get a lot of attacking.
David EdgingtonOh, yeah.
Speaker CI mean, it's not just that.
Speaker CYes, that is part of it.
Speaker CBut I mean, I think ultimately I have a thread of tweets that is finished and ready to post, but I don't know if I want to start this fire.
Speaker CI try to be respectful of rooms that I come into and recognize that there are men in these rooms that have been spent a long time building them.
Speaker CAnd, you know, it's like walking into.
Speaker CAnd I think I've said this in my podcast with Jeff Wright maybe a month or two ago, that it's.
Speaker CThat coming into evangelicalism today is like walking into a big hotel conference room, you know, where the fluorescent lights are kind of hanging and things are flickering and there's stains on the carpet.
Speaker CAnd there are a lot of people just sitting there.
Speaker CAnd I'm like, guys, what's happened?
Speaker CLike, does anybody see this?
Speaker CAnd everyone's like, nope.
David EdgingtonDo you see what's going on?
Speaker CYou see what's going on?
Speaker CAnd it's like, well, they were here.
Speaker CI want to be respectful to them.
Speaker CAnd I think ultimately the reason why no one wants to say anything is that as soon as you start speaking into this, you're going to lose your church.
Speaker CI mean, like, because the tentacles of feminism have reached so far into the church social structure.
Speaker CBecause this is.
Speaker CThis is how women use power.
Speaker CMen use power physically, right?
Speaker CIf we want to exert power, it's with force of arms and force, force of rational will, like reason, you know, our minds and our bodies.
Speaker CWomen have power, which they do through social influence, through insinuation, through gossip and reputation destruction.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CSo men will.
Speaker CA man will just.
Speaker CWhat's that?
David EdgingtonAnd manipulation.
Will SpencerYes.
Speaker CMen will destroy your bodies.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CWomen will destroy your social life.
Speaker CThis is our sin nature.
Speaker CThere's nothing wrong with saying either of these.
Speaker CAnd neither is better or worse than the other.
Speaker CIt's still destruction.
Speaker CAnd so I think a lot of pastors know, they see the seams of feminism like a coal seam running through their church.
Speaker CAnd as soon as they start speaking about these issues about women's sin, you know, they start the Proverbs 14: Women.
Speaker CThere are all kinds of sinful, wicked women, all throughout scripture.
Speaker COf course, there are many virtuous women at all, but we don't talk about these sinful women.
Speaker CWe're happy to talk about men's sins, like David, but we forget that Bathsheba was an adulteress, right?
Speaker CShe knew her husband was out, like, so she participated in this.
Speaker CBut so we focus on the sin of the man and we leave out the sin of the woman.
Speaker CBecause when you start talking about these things, this entire feminist network will activate.
Speaker CAnd they don't think of themselves like feminists, as you said.
Speaker CThey just know that, like, someone has spoken against the almighty woman.
Speaker CAnd then things start to squeeze.
Speaker CAnd I think that runs all the way up to many pastors wives.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CThere's a book I've been working through with my men's group Disciplines of a Godly man by Kent Hughes.
Speaker CAnd in this book, it was written in 1990, 91, there was a survey, and it was an anonymous survey to pastors.
Speaker CAnd in 1991, 12% of pastors admitted in this anonymous survey to having some sort of sexual misconduct that they considered sinful.
Speaker CIt didn't say what it was, whether it was adultery or inappropriate messaging or maybe even an emotional connection.
Speaker CIt didn't say whether they'd repented or not.
Speaker CIt just said 12%.
Speaker CNow, the number is probably higher than that, right?
Speaker CAnd this is in 1991, prior to Internet pornography.
Speaker CSo that number is probably way higher today.
Speaker CIn how many pastors, wives have overlooked various indiscretions of their husbands, so the husbands know that this is now off limits.
Speaker CAnd so men have to overlook this whole section of life and can't speak into it because it not only will affect their church, it'll affect their marriage, their family, their reputations.
Speaker CAnd this is what sin does.
Speaker CIt has to be covered up.
Speaker CBut a secret sin solves nothing.
David EdgingtonAnd I think that there's certainly that.
David EdgingtonThe secret sin that I don't want people to know about, but I think in some ways, will.
David EdgingtonIt's even more basic than that.
David EdgingtonJust people lacking the courage to speak the truth when it's unpopular to be a prophetic voice and saying, this is wrong.
David EdgingtonThis is sin.
David EdgingtonAnd I think a lot of men, a lot of pastors are reluctant to do that because they'll get a lot of flack for it without realizing that.
David EdgingtonI think a lot of pastors and a lot of counselors would be applauded for doing that.
David EdgingtonIf they do it with love.
David EdgingtonThey do it with boldness, but with love.
David EdgingtonI think a lot of pastors would have a greater following with that.
David EdgingtonYou know, it was interesting that I was counseling husband and wife.
David EdgingtonWife that was reviling.
David EdgingtonAnd she was.
David EdgingtonShe was going down the list of all the things that her husband was not doing, all the things that she was doing, and, you know, and totally unbiased, kind of glorifying herself.
Speaker CNo way.
David EdgingtonAnd I just.
David EdgingtonI don't know, I'm hoping it was just the spirit of God came over me.
David EdgingtonAnd I said, you know, you are a poster child for why feminism destroys a marriage base.
David EdgingtonAnd I said that to her.
David EdgingtonAnd she, you know, she got this shocked look on her face.
David EdgingtonNo one had ever said that to her, obviously.
David EdgingtonAnd she said, you're right.
David EdgingtonI go, I mean, I think then I was more shocked than she was.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonAnd, you know, she was repentance over what she had been saying and what she'd been doing.
Speaker CPraise God.
David EdgingtonSo, you know, there is hope.
David EdgingtonThere is.
David EdgingtonI don't want to look.
David EdgingtonI don't want anyone to look at this and say, boy, you got a reviling wife.
David EdgingtonThere is absolutely no hope.
David EdgingtonBut I would say the Vast majority of them.
David EdgingtonThe vast majority of the reviling wives won't even talk to me.
David EdgingtonThey won't even participate in the counseling.
David EdgingtonI would say maybe, you know, 5, 10% are even willing to talk in a counseling setting.
David EdgingtonYou know, they want the echo chamber.
David EdgingtonThey want somebody who's just going to agree with them.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, oh, I'm not going to do that.
David EdgingtonI'm not going to do that with your husband either.
David EdgingtonI'm going to.
David EdgingtonI'm going to hold him accountable, too.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonBut I've been tracking this statistically and since last year, will my counseling.
David Edgington40% of my counseling is in this issue.
David EdgingtonThis area alone.
David Edgington40% is in the reviling wives and marriages.
David EdgingtonAnd there are a lot of suffering men out there.
David EdgingtonAnd again, as you and I have said many times before, we are not saying that men don't do the same thing to women.
David EdgingtonI know they do it to women.
David EdgingtonIt's just as wicked, it is just as evil, is just as sinful.
David EdgingtonYet we have to talk about what women are doing.
David EdgingtonIt's dishonest not to.
David EdgingtonIt's leaving women in their misery if we don't talk to them about it.
David EdgingtonIt's leaving men in the misery if we don't help these men to say, you have to stand up to her.
David EdgingtonEven if she leaves, you have to stand up to her.
David EdgingtonDo it with grace.
David EdgingtonDo it with forgiveness.
David EdgingtonDon't start yelling and screaming and raging at her like she is at you.
David EdgingtonDon't revile in return.
David EdgingtonBut you have to stand.
David EdgingtonYou must.
David EdgingtonIt's not.
David EdgingtonYou have to fear God more than you fear that woman, your wife.
David EdgingtonAnd that's hard because, you know, these women are so fierce and so rigorous in their.
David EdgingtonIn their sin that it's hard for a man to stand up to that.
Speaker CYeah.
Speaker CEspecially because women are very adept verbally much.
David EdgingtonWomen much talk circles around a man before he even gets out of bed.
David EdgingtonLike, you know, it's like, wait a minute, what happened?
David EdgingtonWhat?
David EdgingtonAnd she's got.
David EdgingtonShe's talked about 20 things already that he's done wrong.
David EdgingtonIt's like, what?
David EdgingtonWhat?
David EdgingtonWait, wait, what happened?
David EdgingtonWhat.
David EdgingtonWhat did I do?
Speaker CAnd that's right.
David EdgingtonAnd then you just paid.
David EdgingtonYou just play defense rather than saying, no, let's.
David EdgingtonLet's go on offense and say, you know, wife, I love you, I care for you.
David EdgingtonI want to protect you.
David EdgingtonI want to do what's best for you and the family.
David EdgingtonGod has called me to be the leader.
David EdgingtonI am the leader.
David EdgingtonWhether you want me to be or not.
David EdgingtonI am the head of this family, whether you want me to be or not.
David EdgingtonIt's just going to be a matter of what kind of a leader am I?
David EdgingtonAm I a good leader that stands where God stands, or am I a bad leader that just lets my wife lead?
David EdgingtonAnd that's tragic.
David EdgingtonWe see the tragedy of that.
David EdgingtonYou know, one of the other things too, that I have just recently understood, probably the last year or so, is about the dangers of complementarianism.
Speaker COh, boy, now you've done it.
David EdgingtonI know, I know.
David EdgingtonI'm just poking the bear everywhere.
David EdgingtonAll those bears you and I poke all these bears, poke all the bears.
David EdgingtonAnd it's just the complementarian view just says that the husband and wife.
David EdgingtonThe wife completes the husband.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, okay, that's good.
David EdgingtonThat's biblical.
David EdgingtonNothing wrong with that.
David EdgingtonCompletes him.
David EdgingtonI can see that.
Speaker CYes, yes, okay, we can go there.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonBut what happens with that, in effect, is the husband becomes basically a tiebreaker.
David EdgingtonSo in other words, there's a disagreement, the husband, okay, the husband has the final say.
David EdgingtonAll right, but really, even in that, what happens is the husband is pressured and says, well, if you really love your wife, you'll just do what she wants.
David EdgingtonRight.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, wait a minute, that's not leadership at all now, is it?
David EdgingtonThat's just abdication, like what Adam did.
David EdgingtonFar better to say, you know, the word patriarchy, very simple word, and yet, boy, that.
David EdgingtonThat makes feminists heads explode too, doesn't it?
David EdgingtonYeah, but patriarchy, it just basically means it's two words.
David EdgingtonFather, rule.
David EdgingtonThat's all it is.
David EdgingtonAnd we could look at scripture where Abraham was a patriarch, David was a patriarch, Jacob was the patriarch.
David EdgingtonYou know, I mean, it's a biblical word.
David EdgingtonIt's not something that masculine bros have invented.
David EdgingtonIt's something that's in the scriptures, and it does not at all imply oppression, toxic harshness, cruelty.
David EdgingtonMaking a wife a doormat doesn't imply that at all.
David EdgingtonIt's for protection, it's for help, it's for leading.
David EdgingtonIt's saying that's when the wife is safest.
David EdgingtonSo I've become someone that I embrace the patriarchy now rather than the complementarian view.
David EdgingtonBecause the complementarian view invariably has not only allowed this problem to arise, but it's actually furthered the problem of the reviling wife, because it basically nullifies the man trying to lead in any way, no matter what way the man wants to lead.
David EdgingtonIf the pastor or counselor says, oh, you know that you're asking too much of your Wife.
David EdgingtonOkay, I'll just go along with her.
David EdgingtonWell, then she's leading.
David EdgingtonHow can you not see that?
David EdgingtonHow do you not see that?
David EdgingtonThat's just abdication just looks a little differently.
David EdgingtonAnd again, I'm not saying that men get everything they want every time they want.
David EdgingtonYou know, my wife and I, you know, we function perfectly with this.
David EdgingtonAnd I ask her for input.
David EdgingtonI say, what do you think of this?
David EdgingtonAnd sometimes she'll say.
Speaker CShe says, well, she says, I think.
David EdgingtonThis might be the better way to go.
David EdgingtonAnd I think about it, and I go, you know what?
David EdgingtonThank you.
David EdgingtonYou're right.
David EdgingtonI appreciate your wisdom.
David EdgingtonI'm a blessed man that you can think about things and you're right about some things.
David EdgingtonAnd I'm not saying I'm right about everything.
David EdgingtonAnd then I go, okay, let's do what you said.
David EdgingtonBut when we disagree, when it's something that I say, well, no, I really think this is the way we should go.
David EdgingtonShe says, I trust you, David.
David EdgingtonI follow you, and I'll gladly follow you.
Speaker CYep.
David EdgingtonHow come that's so rare, Will?
David EdgingtonHow come that is so rare?
Speaker CI can give you lots of reasons, by the way.
Speaker CI can.
Speaker CFor everyone, you know, for everyone listening.
Speaker CLike, you know, I've been to.
Speaker CI've been to dinner at your house, David.
Speaker CYours and Diane's house, you know, what, two, three times at least, and spent a lot of time around you guys personally.
Speaker CAnd I can validate, like, that's how.
Speaker CThat's how your marriage works and how happy Diane is and how.
Speaker CHow peaceful she is to be around.
David EdgingtonYes.
Speaker CAnd what a.
Speaker CAnd what a warm and loving presence she is.
David EdgingtonRight.
Speaker CAnd the way.
Speaker CAnd the way that you guys communicate and that you.
Speaker CIt's very clear from being around both of you that you both have your roles and you're happy in them.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAnd that's such a beautiful thing to see, because I think a lot of women hear words like patriarchy or, like submission or obedience or respect or whatever, and these alarm bells go off, and they go straight to doormat.
Speaker CLike, as soon as you say these, Yoshi.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAnd it's like, no, like, these are just two separate roles that both people can be equally happy in if they don't feel the need to lord it over the other person.
Speaker CRight, exactly.
David EdgingtonI don't.
David EdgingtonI don't lord things over my wife.
David EdgingtonI mean, I say, this is what we should do.
David EdgingtonAnd.
David EdgingtonAnd then she goes, well, you know, I think maybe this would be better.
David EdgingtonAnd if she's right, I'm going, of course.
David EdgingtonI've got to be humble enough to admit that.
David EdgingtonBut we do.
David EdgingtonWe value each other, we love each other, we support each other.
David EdgingtonBut you know, isn't it funny what you just said about a wife should obey her husband?
David EdgingtonYou know, 1 Peter 3 says that Sarah obeyed Abraham.
David EdgingtonSarah obeyed Abraham.
David EdgingtonIt says it right there in the passage.
David EdgingtonHe said, oh, that's terrible.
David EdgingtonYou should never ask a wife to obey her husband.
David EdgingtonWhat?
David EdgingtonWhy not?
David EdgingtonWhat is so wicked and evil about that?
David EdgingtonNow again, I know there's bad men out there, and I go, that's harder.
David EdgingtonBut still, 1 Peter 3:1 talks about, even if a husband is disobedient to the Word, you submit to him, you follow him.
David EdgingtonNow again, let's just qualify this will, because I know people will say, oh, so you're saying that if a man is beating his wife, just submit to that, don't do anything about it.
David EdgingtonCourse not.
David EdgingtonOf course we're not saying that, right?
David EdgingtonOh, he's molesting the children.
David EdgingtonJust let him.
David EdgingtonOf course we're not saying that.
Speaker CImmediately jump to the most extreme.
David EdgingtonStop making the hard cases the general principle.
David EdgingtonThat's not the way.
David EdgingtonI mean, obviously then Peter was wrong.
David EdgingtonThen Scripture is wrong.
David EdgingtonThen God is wrong if we're saying that.
David EdgingtonBut there's three passages that I like to point to people about this issue of submission.
David EdgingtonEphesians 5:24 now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
David EdgingtonIn everything.
David EdgingtonNot just the things that she agrees with him on, but in everything.
David EdgingtonNot just the areas where she wants to submit to him, but in everything.
David EdgingtonShe doesn't get to pick and choose and say, well, I'll submit to you here, but I won't submit to you there.
David EdgingtonI mean, Scripture is absolutely clear on that in everything.
David EdgingtonThe second one that I point to is 1 Peter 3:1, 1 we just talked about.
David EdgingtonLikewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the Word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see your respectful and pure conduct.
David EdgingtonSo the likewise is appealing back to first Peter, Chapter two, where here is Jesus was reviled and he suffered, and he did not revile in return.
David Edgington1 Peter 2:23.
David EdgingtonAnd remember, the Scriptures never once tell the husband to submit to the wife.
David EdgingtonNot even once.
Speaker CNope.
David EdgingtonAnd yet just the example that I was giving you about my wife and I that if she's right, she's got a better idea.
David EdgingtonIf she's right and I'm wrong, if she's Just wiser than I am.
David EdgingtonI'm going to follow.
David EdgingtonI'm going to say, yeah, that's good.
David EdgingtonThat's what a good leader does.
David EdgingtonHe listens to the counsel of other people and then he acts accordingly.
Speaker CBut that's not submission to them.
Speaker CYeah, that's still.
Speaker CUltimately, you're making the decision.
David EdgingtonI'm still making the decision.
Speaker CThat's right.
Speaker CI'm taking in your advice, I'm taking in your guidance and your perspective, and I am making the decision.
Speaker CLike, if you're in the car, you know, it's not like you're driving is like, oh, honey, I think we should go left, because that's.
Speaker CAnd you say, we should go right.
Speaker CShe says, no, left.
Speaker CAnd you're like, okay, we'll go that way.
Speaker CWhy don't you drive?
Speaker CThat's not what happens.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CYou still turn the wheel of the car.
David EdgingtonWe function this way all the time in a.
David EdgingtonIn society.
David EdgingtonRight.
David EdgingtonIn a company, the CEO, you know, the CEO, he asks for input from his.
David EdgingtonFrom his employees, and sometimes they have better ideas than he has.
David EdgingtonAnd he says, okay, we'll go that way.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonBut the employee can't say, well, I'm not going to submit to you, CEO.
David EdgingtonI'm going to do whatever I want.
David EdgingtonYou know what he's going to say, you're fired.
Speaker CYou can find another job, you know, work to somebody else.
David EdgingtonThe military.
David EdgingtonHow could the military function if there wasn't submission, if it wasn't leaders and submission.
David EdgingtonAnd that's what the word hupataso is involved in.
David EdgingtonIt's in a military metaphor, a picture that, you know, there's rank, there's order, and if there's not, there's absolute chaos and there's bedlam and nothing is ever going to be accomplished.
David EdgingtonWell, you have to have order, you have to have authority, and you have to have submission.
David EdgingtonThe soldiers must submit.
David EdgingtonAnd yet sometimes the soldiers will tell the general, you know, this is a bad move.
David EdgingtonI think we should go this way.
David EdgingtonAnd a wise general will say, hmm, you're right.
David EdgingtonLet's go that way.
David EdgingtonNow, he's not submitting to them, but he's saying, I'm taking that wisdom in.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonThank you.
David EdgingtonThank you for speaking up.
David EdgingtonThank you for having that.
David EdgingtonAnd with a godly leader, with a godly man, that's going to happen.
David EdgingtonAppropriate.
David EdgingtonWith a prideful, arrogant fool.
David EdgingtonHe's going to say, I don't care what a woman says.
David EdgingtonI'm going to do whatever I want.
David EdgingtonIt's like, well, you're a fool.
David EdgingtonSo I mentioned there's three passages.
David EdgingtonThe third one I go to about submission is Titus 2.
David Edgington5.
David EdgingtonAnd it's about older women speaking to younger women and urging them to train the young women to be submissive to their own husbands.
David EdgingtonAnd here's the key part, that the word of God may not be reviled.
David EdgingtonAnd the word reviled, there is the word for blasphemy.
David EdgingtonSame word for blasphemy, that the word of God would not be blasphemed.
David EdgingtonSo in other words, the unsubmissive wife is actually blaspheming the word of God by saying, I know better than God.
David EdgingtonThat's God's rule.
David EdgingtonThat's God's order.
David EdgingtonI know better.
David EdgingtonI'm going to do what I want.
David EdgingtonI mean, that's basically blasphemy.
David EdgingtonIt's putting herself in the position of the authority of God.
David EdgingtonAnd so those three passages, Ephesians 5, 24, 1 Peter 3, 1 Titus 2:5, submission is so important, and yet it's a dirty word.
David EdgingtonNow, the S word, you know, not the other S word, but the S.
Speaker CWord, the longer S word, right?
David EdgingtonIt's even a more deadly S word.
David EdgingtonAnd we have to speak this because it's scripture, it's biblical.
David EdgingtonIt's what God says.
David EdgingtonWe didn't come up with the term.
David EdgingtonGod did.
David EdgingtonAnd if we're not impressing that on wives and doing it in a godly, loving, gentle way, we're not teaching them well.
David EdgingtonWe're not teaching these young women well.
David EdgingtonAnd this is the one trait that I always talk to when men ask me, say, what do I look for in a godly wife?
David EdgingtonYou know, I'm not married.
David EdgingtonI want a godly wife.
David EdgingtonHow do I find that?
David EdgingtonSay, you know, submission is really one of the most important points because our society has changed so dramatically, so dramatically from even when I was a young man.
David EdgingtonOh, yeah, I'm an old goat now.
David EdgingtonBut even when I was a young man, dinosaur riding.
David EdgingtonStill going, still going.
David EdgingtonI'm not done yet.
David EdgingtonRight?
David EdgingtonGod's not done with me yet.
David EdgingtonBut find a wife that will willingly and gladly submit to you in your leadership.
David EdgingtonJust be sure that you're a godly man.
David EdgingtonJust be sure you're a man that loves the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.
David EdgingtonDon't just love doctrine.
David EdgingtonDon't just love all the doctrines of grace and things like that.
David EdgingtonMake sure that you really love Christ with all your heart and be that kind of man.
David EdgingtonThen you can look for the right kind of woman.
David EdgingtonAnd it'll be a beautiful, a beautiful marriage.
David EdgingtonBut if she's not submissive, it's going to be agony, is going to be painful.
Speaker CWell, then I want to, then I want to ask you about something because this is, this is something that is, it's on the minds of many men of all ages.
Speaker CAnd it's something that, in a sense, that you helped me with and how will be apparent when I bring up the example.
Speaker CThere are a lot of women that spend their 20s and their 30s being unsubmissive, doing what they want, living the life that they want, you know, being feminists in practice, if not in ideology, although sometimes both.
Speaker CAnd suddenly their mid-30s come around and they're realizing they're not so enthusiastic to be alone anymore.
Speaker CAnd so now they want a husband.
Speaker CRight, right, exactly.
Speaker CYeah, yeah.
Speaker CAs the clock begins to tick down and they say that they want a godly and biblical marriage, right?
Speaker CAnd it's, yeah, of course, yeah, of course I want that, sure, whatever.
Speaker CBut ultimately, like, even if they get into that situation, that they don't really want it.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAnd so, and so a lot of men are dealing with this problem.
Speaker CAnd this is the big thing that pastors, I think this is the real problem that pastors aren't dealing with, don't know how to deal with, would prefer not to deal with, is women flooding into the church in the second half of their 30s looking for a husband but bringing no actual godliness with them.
Speaker CLike, where are all the men?
Speaker CIt's like, I didn't realize that this was a drive through marriage opportunity for you.
Speaker CSo, and so women come into the church and they, of course, men and women do this all the time.
Speaker CBut we live in a feminist context.
Speaker CWe live in a societal context that has failed to hold women accountable for sin for the past, I don't know, 60 or 80 years at least.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CThat's the context we're in.
Speaker CNone of this makes men's sins go away.
Speaker CI could talk to you all day about men's sins.
Speaker CAll day.
Speaker CMen sin against men especially.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSo no one's pretending that doesn't happen.
Speaker CBut we've overlooked society wide, society wide, up to the highest level, the existence of women's sins.
Speaker CAnd so now women are coming into the church seeking husbands.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CBut they don't understand or care to understand what a truly submissive heart looks like.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSo knowing that pastors are probably going to abandon young men in this.
Speaker CWhat do you mean?
Speaker CShe looks fine to me.
Speaker CNo problem.
Speaker CWas she an Oldie fans model who made $9 million.
Speaker CWell, she's baptized.
Speaker CYou saw this, right?
Speaker CNala, the onlyfans model.
Speaker CIt's like, yeah, she was a literal digital prostitute.
Speaker CAnd I'm not going to use a more biblical word.
Speaker CI'll use the word prostitute.
Speaker CShe made $9 million selling filth for years, and then she goes and gets baptized.
Speaker CNo problem.
Speaker CShe's good to go.
Speaker CEverybody and pastors and women especially who support her are like, yeah, she's baptized.
Speaker CWhat are you talking about?
Speaker CThere's no problem here anymore.
Speaker CLike, she's washing the blood of the lamb.
Speaker CYou should be enthusiastic to get married to this woman.
Speaker CIt's like, this is preposterous, first of all, but I think there's going to be a lot of this.
Speaker CSo I really would like, if you, if you wouldn't mind a couple of different.
Speaker CI have a couple different questions.
Speaker CWhat can men do to make sure that the women that they're courting or dating are genuinely.
Speaker CThey are about that life.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CIt's like repentant.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CAnd then also, what can you advise?
Speaker CHow can you advise women?
Speaker CLike, this is serious.
Speaker CThis is not a larp.
Speaker CThis is not trad wifing.
Speaker CThis is not even Christian trad wifing.
Speaker CThis is the condition of your immortal soul and to take it seriously.
David EdgingtonRight?
David EdgingtonYeah.
David EdgingtonIt's funny, a year ago, I would have no idea what you just said.
David EdgingtonI'm like, what do all those words mean?
David EdgingtonBut now I'm like, oh, I get it.
David EdgingtonI get it now.
Speaker CI still don't know what I just said.
David EdgingtonSo I understand.
David EdgingtonWhat larping and trad wife and all that.
David EdgingtonOkay, I understand.
Speaker CWe're going to unbover you yet.
David EdgingtonYeah, you're going to.
David EdgingtonYou're going to make me into a millennial, I guess.
David EdgingtonI don't know.
David EdgingtonBut, you know, white knighting and cucks and all that, I go, I know what all that means now.
David EdgingtonIt's like, amazing what the Internet does.
David EdgingtonThe education that you get.
David EdgingtonRight.
Speaker CWas this all literally all because you went on those podcasts a year ago?
David EdgingtonYeah, really, it is.
David EdgingtonIt's the podcast.
David EdgingtonAnd then talking to all of these younger men too, because most of the men I'm counseling are younger than I am.
David EdgingtonAnd, you know, they're talking about all stuff.
David EdgingtonI'm like, okay, I gotta look that word up.
David EdgingtonWhat does that mean?
David EdgingtonOkay.
David EdgingtonAnd so I've learned an incredible amount in the last year just from counseling so many of these men.
David EdgingtonAgain, hundreds of men that are going through this.
David EdgingtonAnd I Go.
David EdgingtonThis is incredible.
David EdgingtonSo let's talk about that.
David EdgingtonThat's an excellent, excellent topic.
David EdgingtonThe.
David EdgingtonThe woman that's lived an immoral life, godless life, you know, porn star only fan star, you know, whatever it is, she's been a digital prostitute, or digital whore, whatever you want to call her.
Speaker CYeah, there you go.
David EdgingtonI said the word.
David EdgingtonSorry, Will.
Speaker CYou said the thing.
David EdgingtonI said the thing.
Speaker CIt's so over.
David EdgingtonYeah, that's it.
David EdgingtonThat's it.
David EdgingtonBut, okay, I think we have to look at this and say, all right, there is redemption for her.
Speaker COf course.
David EdgingtonYou know, there is redemption for her, and she comes to Christ.
David EdgingtonSalvation in Christ.
David EdgingtonShe is regenerated.
David EdgingtonShe is born again.
David EdgingtonI go, praise God.
David EdgingtonI'm happy for her.
David EdgingtonI love this.
David EdgingtonThis is wonderful.
David EdgingtonBut now, as Matthew 13 talks about, let's examine the fruit.
David EdgingtonLet's see what comes of this.
David EdgingtonAnd as you know, fruit, it takes time for fruit to grow, doesn't it?
David EdgingtonFruit doesn't just, boom, just appears on the tree.
David EdgingtonWe got a big fig tree in our backyard, and, you know, it takes months and months for that fruit to appear.
David EdgingtonWe go, okay, that's what we're going to have to do with these women that say, oh, I've lived this horrible, immoral, unsubmissive, godless life.
David EdgingtonNow I'm 35 years old.
David EdgingtonI want to have a good husband.
David EdgingtonI want to have children.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, okay, good, good.
David EdgingtonThat's a good desire.
David EdgingtonBut let's put the brakes on and let's examine the fruit.
David EdgingtonLet's be fruit inspectors, right?
David EdgingtonLet's not just assume you've made a profession of faith, you've been baptized or baptized, whatever you want to say, however you want to view that, that everything's fine now, everything's great.
David EdgingtonSanctification is complete.
David EdgingtonIt's like, no, it doesn't work that way.
David EdgingtonIt doesn't work that way with anybody.
David EdgingtonThere's a long road of sanctification.
David EdgingtonIn fact, it's your whole life.
David EdgingtonIt's progressive.
David EdgingtonSanctification is the biblical word for it.
David EdgingtonYou know, I've been.
David EdgingtonI've been a believer for 41 years now.
David EdgingtonYou know, I became a believer when I was 23.
David EdgingtonSo the math is, I'm 64 now.
David EdgingtonI'm almost a senior citizen.
David EdgingtonBut when I was 23 years old, I thought, yeah, I got it all together now.
David EdgingtonAnd then five, 10, 15 years later, I'm like, boy, I need a lot of.
David EdgingtonI got to grow an awful lot.
David EdgingtonI'm not seeing a lot that I, you know, I'm seeing more than I did when I was an unbeliever.
David EdgingtonBut, boy, I've got a long ways to go.
David EdgingtonAnd so now, even at 40, 41 years later, after I'm a believer, it's like I still have a ways to go, but I'm much better than I was, you know, 40 years ago.
Speaker CAmen.
David EdgingtonSo I think we have to be patient with these women that are making these professions of faith.
David EdgingtonSome of them are going to be false.
David EdgingtonSome of them are not really going to be born again.
David EdgingtonThey're not going to be regenerated.
David EdgingtonBut how do you tell?
David EdgingtonThe only way you tell is through time.
David EdgingtonThat's the only.
David EdgingtonI don't care how precise and perfect their theology and their doctrine is.
David EdgingtonThe fruit is what demonstrates whether it's genuine or not.
David EdgingtonThe fruit that evidences whether it's real, Holy Spirit work in the heart, or if it's fake or if it's just a profession of faith.
David EdgingtonSo the same thing for men, whether it's young men, middle aged men that are looking for a wife, you've got to take time, get to know this woman.
David EdgingtonAnd I urge men right up front, talk about these issues right up front with this woman.
David EdgingtonWhat is your view of submission to a husband?
David EdgingtonI mean, you know, some husbands, some men say, I gotta ask that right in the first date.
David EdgingtonI go, it's not a bad idea.
Speaker CNot a bad idea.
David EdgingtonDo it gently.
David EdgingtonBut see what, see what's out there.
David EdgingtonSee what?
David EdgingtonThe landscape.
David EdgingtonIf she balks at that and says, well, I don't, okay, it's probably not going to work unless she just really changes dramatically and follows you.
David EdgingtonBut if she says yes, I do believe the man is the head of the home.
David EdgingtonHe is supposed to be the leader.
David EdgingtonI go, okay, that's a start.
David EdgingtonThat's not the whole thing, but at least you're in the ballpark.
David EdgingtonAnd now you evaluate it.
David EdgingtonYou go out with this woman, you talk with her, you go on dates in different venues.
David EdgingtonYou might go to the movies, you might go shopping at Costco, you might go to some events.
David EdgingtonAll different situations.
David EdgingtonGet her around your friends go around her friends, evaluate.
David EdgingtonSee what's happening in her.
David EdgingtonIs she.
David EdgingtonDoes she look like a kind of woman that's willing to follow you?
David EdgingtonOr is she all about a career?
David EdgingtonDoes she say, no, I'll submit to you, but I want my career?
David EdgingtonI'm like, well, that's going to be really hard.
David EdgingtonYou know, you've got a career, I've got a career.
David EdgingtonYou have to be you know, woman, wife, you have to be willing to join me in my mission.
David EdgingtonIt's not me joining you in your mission.
David EdgingtonI don't mean that in a mean way.
David EdgingtonI mean that in a biblical way that she has to be willing to follow him.
David EdgingtonThis is the Proverbs 31, wife.
David EdgingtonYou know, we all glorify the Proverbs 31, wife.
David EdgingtonWe say, well, look, she worked and she had a job, and she went out and bought a field and all that.
David EdgingtonAnd we go, yeah, but she was doing that to serve her family, to serve her husband.
Speaker CYep.
David EdgingtonShe wasn't just doing it independently and saying, well, I'm going to work for some other employer and.
David EdgingtonAnd make him rich and make him prosperous.
David EdgingtonIt's like, no, I want to do these things for my family, for my husband.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonSo.
David EdgingtonSo we're.
David EdgingtonWe're kind of touching on a lot of different issues here.
David EdgingtonAnd, you know, the career woman is going to be hard for her to submit because she has invested a lot of money in her education, a lot of time in her vocation.
David EdgingtonAnd, I mean, just.
David EdgingtonJust look at what happened a few days ago with the football player, Harrison.
David EdgingtonBut, yeah, you know, I mean, what he said, I'm like, wonderful.
David EdgingtonHow nice.
David EdgingtonI mean, he's a Catholic, so his theology is off.
David EdgingtonBut, you know, what he said was good.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, praise God.
David EdgingtonThis is wonderful.
David EdgingtonOh, my.
David EdgingtonYou see what happened?
David EdgingtonBlew up the woodwork, was it 250,000 people signed a petition to get him fired from the team.
Speaker CNice.
David EdgingtonLike what?
Speaker CReally?
Speaker CYeah, it shows.
Speaker CIt just demonstrates the size of this.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonAnd then I saw this video of one of the.
David EdgingtonI think it was one of the cheerleaders on the team, and she was just snarky, you know, arrogant young woman, and saying, well, we're both employees of the Kansas City Chiefs, and let me educate you.
David EdgingtonAnd foul language.
David EdgingtonAnd like, you're putting yourself on the same level as a football player, first of all.
Speaker CI mean, come on, we're both on the field together.
David EdgingtonGive me a break.
David EdgingtonBut I mean, just the things that she said.
David EdgingtonI'm like, oh, this is just so painful to hear.
David EdgingtonI just feel so bad.
David EdgingtonI felt bad for her, but I felt bad for the man that she's either married to or the man she's going to marry.
David EdgingtonI go, this is not going to go well.
David EdgingtonThis is going to be painful, painful, agonizing.
David EdgingtonShe's probably going to be a reviling wife if she's not already.
David EdgingtonSo this is kind of the whole landscape you know, I mean, I think, again, the scriptures give one basic command for wives.
David EdgingtonThere's really not.
David EdgingtonI can't really think of other commands specifically for the wives other than she is to submit to her husband.
David EdgingtonAnd if she fails in that one, game over, as far as I'm concerned, I go, just move along.
David EdgingtonDon't pursue her.
David EdgingtonI feel bad for her.
David EdgingtonI hope other godly older women will help her, like the Titus 2 women.
David EdgingtonYou know, I hope they'll come alongside and help her to learn that.
David EdgingtonBut the man has to look at this and say, no, this is going to be torture for me if I marry the wrong woman.
David EdgingtonI don't want that to happen to men because I counsel these men every day, Will every day.
David EdgingtonThey contact me every single day.
David EdgingtonAnd it is painful and agonizing.
David EdgingtonIt's hard for me to endure what they're going through because it's like I'm just kind of living it over with them saying, oh, oh, this is painful.
David EdgingtonYeah, this sounds exactly like the other guy I talked to last week.
David EdgingtonThe story is the same over and over and over again.
David EdgingtonIt's almost like a carbon copy of the reviling wife.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonAnd again, this is worldwide.
David EdgingtonThis is not just America.
David EdgingtonThis is not just Phoenix, Arizona, where you and I live.
David EdgingtonThis is all over the world.
Speaker CYeah.
Speaker CSo it's.
David EdgingtonI know I got off on a tangent there.
David EdgingtonI don't know if I answered your question or not, but I don't remember.
Speaker CWhat the question was.
David EdgingtonOkay.
David EdgingtonMaybe the listeners remember saying, you guys missed it, you know.
Speaker CWell, there were two questions.
Speaker COne is, you know, what men should do.
Speaker CBut I think there's also a question of what women should do, because we don't have those Titus 2 women anymore to disciple, you know, to disciple the younger women.
Speaker CWe just.
Speaker CWe have a whole generation where that's just been dynamited.
Speaker CAnd so we have.
Speaker CThis is what the renaissance of men was is like.
Speaker CYou have a generation where fatherhood has been dynamited, whether by war or propaganda or both.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSo you had, beginning in the 80s and the 90s, a whole bunch of men basically being like, well, I guess we have to figure this out for ourselves.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSubstituting older brothers for fathers.
Speaker CAnd Andrew Tate is the best example of that.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CHe's an older brother.
Speaker COlder brothers are bullies, like, I love you.
Speaker CI bully you because I love you.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CThat's the classic older brother model.
Speaker CThat's the whole manosphere, essentially.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker COkay.
Speaker CSo now a lot of men are exiting that world to Christianity, which is all about the father, right.
Speaker CBrotherhood has a different framework.
Speaker CIt's all about the father.
Speaker CSo men are going in that direction and in the process, men are becoming more conservative.
Speaker CThis is actually young men are becoming more conservative as they enter various forms of Christianity.
Speaker CBut what we don't have is in the demolition of fatherhood.
Speaker CWe had a knock on effect of the demolition of motherhood down to the point of like, what is a woman?
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CBut what we don't seem to really have yet, or what is taking shape much more slowly is women discipling women and how to be submissive.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSo you have.
Speaker CI mean, there are examples of women that are doing this work.
Speaker CI had a podcast, I've recorded it.
Speaker CIt's gonna come out Friday.
Speaker CIt'll be out by the time this one comes out with Annalise, formerly feminine, not feminist.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAnd she disciples by example.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CBut she's a young girl herself.
Speaker CI believe that she's in her 20s.
Speaker CWe don't have women in like, we have more Leslie Vernix that are discipling women in rebellion than we do.
Speaker CAnd it's up to Pearl, who Pearl believe in her 30s, she's not a believer, but it took someone at that level and look, I'm not a huge fan of everything that she does, but she said a lot of really right things about calling out women's sins.
Speaker CAnd we don't have a generation of women inside the church who have been doing that.
Speaker CIt's like a blind eye kind of thing.
Speaker CNow we do have Rebecca Merkel and Rachel Jankovic, Doug Wilson's daughters, and Nancy Wilson, his wife, that have done a really good job.
Speaker CAnd I'm a big fan of the things that they've talked about.
Speaker CYes, but it can't all be Moscow doing everything forever.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CAnd so.
Speaker CAnd so in the same way that young men have had to find their way forward to men that can disciple them in masculinity, godly masculinity.
Speaker CYou have.
Speaker CBecause they've been abandoned, they're orphans.
Speaker CYou have women that have been orphaned as well, but are still made in the image of God and their heart is drawing them in that direction and they don't.
Speaker CThey have few resources that they can turn to.
Speaker CSo for women who are listening to this interview, knowing that they might not find a pastor or his wife to do a good job in discipling them in godly womanhood, what advice would you give for them in their own faith walk in their own sanctification so that they can become a non reviling wife?
Speaker CBecause I actually do get quite a lot of DMs from women on Instagram saying, I think I'm a reviling wife.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CLike, I'm worried that this is me, which is.
Speaker CAnd praise God for that.
Speaker CI appreciate knowing.
Speaker CAnd what I normally say is like, my, I don't know you, I've never met you, we've never talked.
Speaker CThis is just words on a screen.
Speaker CBut that you're worried about that means that you might not actually be right.
Speaker CSo, but there.
Speaker CBut there.
Speaker CBut there are young girls who might wonder, who have seen that in themselves, and even women and wives as well, who may see that in themselves.
Speaker CWhat advice would you have for them to walk this out on their own, knowing they may not find support in the church or in the world.
David EdgingtonRight.
David EdgingtonSo you're talking about women that they may see tendencies or traits in themselves that say, I may be this kind of a reviling wife.
David EdgingtonYou're not just talking about a woman in general?
Speaker CNo, I love how you take the long winded things that I say and you put them in like a loving and calm way.
Speaker CI'll talk for five minutes, like, so Will, what you're really saying is, I.
David EdgingtonJust want to be sure I'm getting your point.
David EdgingtonThat's all.
Speaker CYou do that all the time.
Speaker CIt's one of my favorite things.
David EdgingtonOkay, thank you, Will.
Speaker CI think it's a compliment.
Speaker CIt's definitely a compliment.
David EdgingtonYeah.
David EdgingtonBecause I get women like that, that contact me and say exactly the same thing.
David EdgingtonThey say, I think I might be a reviling wife.
David EdgingtonCan you help me?
David EdgingtonAnd I go, praise God.
David EdgingtonYou know, it's like, well, that's kind of strange saying, praise God, but praise God.
David EdgingtonBecause they're seeing some things, there's conviction in their heart, and often it's after they watch a podcast and maybe after they watch this one and they say, oh my, that sounds like me.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, okay, so that is a woman that is at least to some degree humble enough to examine herself and not just blame her husband.
Speaker CYes.
David EdgingtonSo now that woman has a lot of hope.
David EdgingtonAnd I've helped women like that.
David EdgingtonI've got a pastor and his wife.
David EdgingtonAnd the wife contacted me because she said, I think I'm a reviling wife.
David EdgingtonCan you help me?
David EdgingtonAnd I said, yes, let's get you and your husband, the pastor, together and let's meet altogether.
David EdgingtonAnd I always do that.
David EdgingtonThis is another point that I want to re.
David EdgingtonEmphasize, meet with the husband and the wife together.
David EdgingtonI know.
David EdgingtonI'm getting to your question because you're Asking about something different.
David EdgingtonBut meet together.
David EdgingtonDo not meet separately.
David EdgingtonLet the wife meet with the pastor or the counselor, and then the man meet with the pastor.
David EdgingtonThat's a recipe for disaster, because that just encourages gossip.
David EdgingtonSo meet together.
David EdgingtonBut my point is about this wife that she says, I think I'm a reviling wife.
David EdgingtonAnd so they contacted me, we started counseling, and I said, you are a reviling wife, but there's hope for you because you're humble enough to recognize it, and you see these tendencies and these traits in yourself and you want to change.
David EdgingtonAnd this is a couple in their, like, middle 30s, I'd say.
David EdgingtonSo they're a young couple, and through the process of counseling with them, just using the word of God and helping them, she has been repentant and changed.
David EdgingtonAnd the last time I talked to them, the husband said, you know what?
David EdgingtonIt's so nice.
David EdgingtonI love coming home.
David EdgingtonNow, I don't dread coming home because my wife is sweet and kind and loving and all that.
David EdgingtonI go, oh, great, that's what we need.
David EdgingtonBut it's going to take women to be humble enough to examine their own hearts.
David EdgingtonSo now I'm talking about specifically the ones you're asking about.
David EdgingtonA single woman that's not married that says, I might be a reviling wife, okay?
David EdgingtonHumble enough to acknowledge that maybe there's something in me that's wrong.
David EdgingtonIf you're bitter and angry and hostile at everything in the world, you're not going to get any help.
David EdgingtonAll you're going to find is an echo chamber of other people who say, oh, you have every right to be bitter and angry.
David EdgingtonGo bang the sticks on the ground and scream in the forest.
David EdgingtonThat's not going to help you.
David EdgingtonIt's going to make it worse.
David EdgingtonBut you've got to put on humility.
David EdgingtonColossians 3 talks about that.
David EdgingtonPutting on humility.
David EdgingtonPut it on and listen and hear.
David EdgingtonAnd now you have to have someone that's willing to help you and someone that can help you.
David EdgingtonTwo things, right?
David EdgingtonWilling to and can do it.
David EdgingtonBecause some people are willing, but they don't know what to do.
David EdgingtonSome people, you know, they can do it, but they're not willing to do it.
David EdgingtonBut it would be best if it was a godly older woman that would do that.
David EdgingtonSo I think this is a good call on this podcast to say, older godly women seek out these younger women in your churches, in your sphere of influence, and pursue them to help them to grow, just like Titus 2.
David Edgington5 says, right?
David EdgingtonTo be submissive to their husbands.
David EdgingtonSo that the word of God is not blasphemed.
David EdgingtonThey need that.
David EdgingtonBut we need to have pastors and counselors rise up and say, I'm not going to be afraid to call women to account for their sin.
David EdgingtonI have to.
David EdgingtonIt's part of my calling as a minister of the gospel, as a man.
David EdgingtonThat's a.
David EdgingtonI mean, I look at myself as a physician of the soul.
David EdgingtonThat's what the Puritans used to call themselves, physicians of the soul.
David EdgingtonThey I can't set a broken bone, but I can help you with the problems of your soul.
David EdgingtonThat's what we should be.
David EdgingtonAnd help these women.
David EdgingtonYou know, don't just ignore them if they're crying out for help.
David EdgingtonLet's minister the Word to them.
David EdgingtonTalk to them about humility, talk to them about grace, talk to them about their tongue.
David EdgingtonYou know, go through James, chapter three about the tongue, what the tongue does.
David EdgingtonBecause the reviling wife just tears her husband apart with her tongue.
David EdgingtonA lot of things that it talks about there speak with respect.
David EdgingtonFirst Peter 3 passage talks about when they observe your respectful behavior.
David EdgingtonSo here's even the man that is disobedient to the word of God, the wife still has to unconditionally respect him.
David EdgingtonBecause I've had wives that say, I don't respect my husband at all.
David EdgingtonI said, well, you know, that's a problem.
David EdgingtonIt's not him, it's you.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonYou are called to respect him whether he's a respectable man or not.
David EdgingtonThat's what scripture urges and teaches and commands.
David EdgingtonSo this is a.
David EdgingtonIt's a complicated problem, isn't it?
David EdgingtonIt's got a lot of tentacles to it.
David EdgingtonIt's got a deep web to it.
David EdgingtonAnd it's going to take older women to rise up and seek out these other women, these young women that say, I think I'm a reviling woman, help me, or a reviling wife, help me.
David EdgingtonIt's going to take pastors to speak clearly, cogently and boldly about this.
David EdgingtonAnd it's going to take counselors like myself, whether they're nosthetic counselors like I am, or whatever type they are, to say, I've got to hold women accountable just like I hold men accountable.
David EdgingtonI can't wilt, I can't shrink from that.
David EdgingtonThat's the responsibility that we have.
David EdgingtonAnd help these people, help them.
Speaker CWell, you know how it seems to me.
Speaker CI had this thought earlier when you mentioned it was Leslie Vernick and a bunch of others, a bunch of other names that you provided.
Speaker CNow, I don't follow any of them, but I'm familiar with their names, and.
David EdgingtonIt all blocked me, so I don't follow them anymore.
Speaker CWow.
Speaker CYou, like, you have.
Speaker CYou don't have a whole ton of followers either.
Speaker CSo you're.
Speaker CYeah, they're gonna contact Sheila Gregor.
David EdgingtonAnd I said, you know, I just said something very simple.
David EdgingtonAnd I said on Twitter or X.
David EdgingtonAnd I said, is it possible that women are bitter against men and that's causing a lot of problems?
David EdgingtonShe blocked me.
David EdgingtonShe didn't even interact, just blocked me.
David EdgingtonThat's it.
Speaker CThank you for proving my point.
David EdgingtonLike, yeah.
David EdgingtonReally?
David EdgingtonLike, okay, you kind of did prove what I said.
David EdgingtonI'm like, wow, okay.
Speaker CBut it's almost like there's two sets of rules, right?
Speaker CThis idea of patriarchy that's assigned to Christianity, that men.
Speaker CObviously, it's deeper than that, but it's not just assigned to Christianity.
Speaker CIt's the way that God made the world.
Speaker CBut there's this idea that men should be bound by the word of scripture.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CBut women, they don't need to.
Speaker CAnd this is within the Christian sphere.
Speaker CIt's like, well, all those things, it's just for men.
Speaker CAnd so good men follow the word of God, and women are like, we get to do whatever we want, and we still get to call ourselves Christian.
Speaker CIt's like, where are you getting this second rule book?
Speaker CWhat is the parallel source of authority to Scripture?
Speaker CWell, I mean, it's.
Speaker CWhat is it?
Speaker CTrauma, My feelings, right?
Speaker CLike the books, the key textbooks of feminism.
Speaker CIt's almost like there's this parallel authority that's set up.
David EdgingtonIt's a decoder rig.
David EdgingtonWill, you didn't get one of those?
Speaker CWell, I didn't, but I'm familiar with lots of different faith traditions that seem to have a decoder ring on the Bible that produces all kinds of terrible ideas.
Speaker CBut that's neither here nor there.
Speaker CBut it's like feminism is.
Speaker CIt's.
Speaker CI don't even like the word because it's not the.
Speaker CIt's.
Speaker CIt's not a sociopolitical, economic thing.
Speaker CIt's deeper.
Speaker CIt's.
Speaker CThis is a parallel authority that is set up even in the Christian sphere, that we interpret the Bible through this lens of our own texts and our own authority that gives us this kind of parallel.
Speaker CThis sort of false religion.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CThat.
Speaker CThat Christian women and faith leaders seem to think that they can do.
Speaker CAnd it's a strange thing.
David EdgingtonThis is what I hear very often when I have the opportunity to talk to reviling wives A lot of times, again, as I said, they won't talk to me.
David EdgingtonBut when they do, and a lot of times they talk to me just to blast me and say, I'm done.
David EdgingtonThat's it.
David EdgingtonJust wanted to get this out.
Speaker CThanks.
David EdgingtonI want to help you.
David EdgingtonI'm not trying to condemn you, but here's what they say, because I read Ephesians 5.
David Edgington24.
David EdgingtonThe wife should submit in everything to her husband.
David EdgingtonAnd she says, well, read the next verse.
David EdgingtonHusbands love your wives as Christ loved the church.
David EdgingtonMy husband is not loving me like Christ loves the church, so therefore I don't have to submit to him.
David EdgingtonI said, that's not what it says.
Speaker CThat's not what it says.
David EdgingtonIt's a command for you, and it's a command for him.
David EdgingtonYeah, but he's not doing his part.
David EdgingtonI said, don't worry about him doing his part.
David EdgingtonYou do your part.
David EdgingtonDon't look at correcting him.
David EdgingtonLet God work in you.
David EdgingtonBut that's what the reviling wife does.
David EdgingtonShe says, well, he's not loving me like Christ loves the church.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, okay, probably in reality, no husband is loving his wife like Christ loves the church.
Speaker CProbably.
Speaker CProbably not.
David EdgingtonProbably not exactly a completely doable thing.
David EdgingtonBut I know men that are striving to do that.
David EdgingtonI go, yes, and when they don't love their wives, we rebuke them.
David EdgingtonWe say, you know, that wasn't very loving, the way you handled that with your wife.
David EdgingtonYou're kind of harsh.
David EdgingtonYou're kind of cruel.
David EdgingtonI've called many men out like that.
David EdgingtonAnd they go.
David EdgingtonUsually the men go, you're right.
David EdgingtonThank you.
David EdgingtonBut when I call a woman out and I say, you know what?
David EdgingtonThat wasn't very submissive to your husband.
David EdgingtonWell, how dare you?
David EdgingtonWho do you think.
David EdgingtonWait, wait.
David EdgingtonI just called your husband out on not being loving to you.
David EdgingtonYou're not being submissive to him.
David EdgingtonWhy is there a separate rule for you?
David EdgingtonWhy do you have this?
David EdgingtonIt's that mysterious book, Second Hesitations Will.
David EdgingtonThat's not in all Bibles, but in some Bibles, it explains all of these things.
David EdgingtonVery feminist Bible, that we get a separate set of rules.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, no, you don't.
David EdgingtonWe all get the same, we all sin.
David EdgingtonWe all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
David EdgingtonRomans 3:23 does not say all men sin and fall short of the glory of God.
David EdgingtonSays all of us do.
David EdgingtonNot just men, but women do as well.
David EdgingtonAnd we have to just keep on that point and say, look, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but you have to be held accountable for your sin, too.
David EdgingtonBut like you said, a lot of wives, they just dismiss those.
David EdgingtonYou know, like Kaylee Triller saying that I'm going to tell women to.
David EdgingtonShe did.
David EdgingtonShe told women to revile men.
David EdgingtonI go, how could you possibly say that?
David EdgingtonWow, that would be like me saying, okay, men just slap your wife whenever she's out of line.
David EdgingtonYou know, it's like, I mean, women would come unglued on that, and rightly so.
David EdgingtonYou know, that's just encouraging sin.
David EdgingtonThat's horrible.
Speaker CIt's harsh.
David EdgingtonBut why does she get a pass?
David EdgingtonAnd then she blocks me.
David EdgingtonAnd so it looks like everybody agrees with her because my comments are not there anymore.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, oh, that's pretty effective.
David EdgingtonThat's one of the things I've learned about X and Twitter in the last year.
David EdgingtonIt's like, okay, you can kind of manage what you want people to see, what you want them to hear.
Speaker CWell, if someone blocks you on X, your comments stay, but you just don't get to reply.
David EdgingtonYou don't get to rep.
David EdgingtonYeah, so.
Speaker CWhen you comment under her post, when she blocks you, that doesn't mean that your comment goes away.
Speaker CIt's still there for everyone to view, including her, because she can click to unview that specific tweet.
Speaker CI've had to learn this because I've gotten quite good at blocking people on X now because I used to give them a chance and now I just don't anymore.
Speaker CBut they're always annoying.
Speaker CSo, yeah, when you block somebody, their comment remains and other people can still interact with it.
Speaker CSo I've gotten notifications and stuff like that, but please, go ahead.
David EdgingtonNo, but you're right.
David EdgingtonBut what they do is they kind of manage it so that you can't comment on anything anymore.
Speaker CThat's right.
Speaker CYou can't defend yourself anymore.
David EdgingtonYou're prevented from interacting and talking about it and saying, wait a minute, this is not accurate.
David EdgingtonI mean, I've been called a pedophile.
David EdgingtonBeen called.
David EdgingtonI need an exorcism.
David EdgingtonDone.
David EdgingtonWhat?
David EdgingtonGood.
David EdgingtonThis is interesting.
David EdgingtonThis is very fascinating.
David EdgingtonI, you know, I feel sorry for all the people you counsel.
David EdgingtonI'm like, really?
David EdgingtonI don't think they would say the same thing.
David EdgingtonYou know, of course some of them would.
David EdgingtonYou know, some of them don't.
David EdgingtonDon't like me.
David EdgingtonBut it's very, very small number.
David EdgingtonI go, I.
David EdgingtonI think like you, I'm a likable guy.
Speaker CNot a.
Speaker CI try to be.
David EdgingtonI'm Not a mean guy.
David EdgingtonI like you too.
David EdgingtonAnd it's like, you know, it's just like, you know, I'm not, I'm not out to cause trouble.
David EdgingtonI'm.
David EdgingtonI'm here to help people grow in sanctification.
Speaker CThat's right.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonAnd you know, and they help me too.
David EdgingtonWhen I see some things in them, I go, yeah, I do the same thing, don't I?
David EdgingtonInteresting.
Speaker CWhat's odd about this is I get that accusation a lot, you know, who say, oh, you just hate women.
Speaker CIt's like, well, if that were true.
Speaker CSome of my most downloaded podcasts of all time on a show called the Renaissance of Men are interviews with women.
Speaker CAnd you can go and you can watch those interviews and you can see me interact with women of all ages, inside and outside the faith.
Speaker CI did a whole conference on the Proverbs, 31 woman with like eight women spoke that day.
Speaker CSo you get to like, how do you.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CSo is this the behavior of someone who hates women to spend a ton of effort putting on an all day conference that I ran and did all like myself and just let women talk and like, I'm going to challenge.
Speaker CI didn't challenge them, obviously, because why would I?
Speaker CBut this is the thing is it's very easy for people to say, oh, you're just a woman hater, because you made me uncomfortable with something that you said.
Speaker CThat means I'm now going to impute motive to you.
Speaker CThat because I'm uncomfortable by your words, that means something about you.
Speaker CThat's not how this works.
Speaker CMy inner reality is the metric that I go by to know other people's.
David EdgingtonAnd this is the mind of the reviling wife.
David EdgingtonIt twists everything around.
David EdgingtonSo in other words, when the man is kind, is nice, is gentle, they say, oh, you're just manipulating me now.
David EdgingtonI'm like, well, how can this man ever win then?
David EdgingtonHow can he ever do something good for you?
David EdgingtonSo the same thing with me.
David EdgingtonI get accused of that by the reviling wives accused me of that.
David EdgingtonOh, you just want this woman to stay in an abusive marriage.
David EdgingtonI'm like, no, I'm trying to save the marriage.
David EdgingtonI'm trying to reconcile the husband and wife together.
David EdgingtonI'm not trying to encourage abuse, which is a terrible word because it's so vague in general, almost nothing.
David EdgingtonBut I'm not trying to encourage that abuse.
David EdgingtonI'm trying to get each of you to look at your hearts and examine your hearts and repent where it's needed so that you can have peace in your home.
David EdgingtonBut it's, you know, it's not going to happen if the wife just continues to insist.
David EdgingtonNo, he's hateful, he's abusive, and then when he's kind, he's manipulating me.
David EdgingtonI had one.
David EdgingtonOh, I could tell you so many stories.
Speaker CLet's go.
David EdgingtonThere's one that happened just last week.
David EdgingtonHusband and wife.
David EdgingtonI'm counseling, and I asked them, I said, how are things going?
David EdgingtonAnd the husband said, you know, I've been really trying to be kinder and more gentle with my wife.
David EdgingtonI go, good, good.
David EdgingtonAnd I looked at her and I said, how's he been doing?
David EdgingtonShe said, yep, for the last three weeks, he's been really good.
David EdgingtonHe's been a good husband.
David EdgingtonHe's been gentle, he's been kind.
David EdgingtonIt's been wonderful.
David EdgingtonOkay, how's it been going the other way?
David EdgingtonYou know?
David EdgingtonWife, how have you been doing towards him?
David EdgingtonWell, I've been screaming at him and I've been hitting him and I, you know, scratched his back and 18 inch long scratch marks on his back and this and that.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, why would you think that's okay?
David EdgingtonWell, he's being kind to me now, so I can, you know, be any way I want to him.
David EdgingtonI said, wait, what, what you're doing is just evil.
David EdgingtonThis is a sin.
David EdgingtonThis is wicked.
David EdgingtonThis is horrible.
David EdgingtonHow could you do that?
David EdgingtonAnd then she started laughing about it.
Speaker COh, very positive sign.
David EdgingtonShe started laughing about it.
David EdgingtonAnd I said, why are you laughing?
David EdgingtonThis is not funny at all.
David EdgingtonI'm not, I'm not joking about this.
David EdgingtonAnd she just kept laughing and laughing.
Speaker CI'm like, wow, David, did you come to trouble her before the time?
David EdgingtonIs this some Star Trek parallel universe here where everything is the opposite and I don't know what have you to.
Speaker CDo with me, David Edgington?
Speaker CHave you come to trouble me before the time?
Speaker CHead turns around, head spins around, vomit.
David EdgingtonComes out, you go, wow.
David EdgingtonBut that's how blind some of these women are.
David EdgingtonNow, again, this man was not perfect.
David EdgingtonHe had plenty of flaws.
David EdgingtonAnd I called him out on every one of them.
David EdgingtonAnd I said, you know, you're doing some wicked things to your wife.
Speaker CThis is.
David EdgingtonThere's no excuse for this.
David EdgingtonBut, you know, he was somber and repentant and sorrowful and call her out.
David EdgingtonShe laughs.
David EdgingtonIt's funny.
Speaker CI'm like, was this in person?
Speaker CWas this in your office?
Speaker COr was it on zoom?
Speaker COr on.
David EdgingtonIt was on Zoom.
Speaker COkay.
Speaker CMaybe best for your safety.
David EdgingtonYes, I think so.
Speaker CI meet on Zoom for my safety.
David EdgingtonAnd you know, about half of my counseling is on zoom now.
David EdgingtonIt's remote.
David EdgingtonAbout half.
David EdgingtonThat's changed too, in the last year.
David EdgingtonIt's because of the reach of the podcast and the book that so many people are getting exposed to this and saying, oh, finally someone that's talking about this.
David EdgingtonMy pastor doesn't understand it, my counselor doesn't understand it.
David EdgingtonSo the online community, the remote counseling has just exploded in my ministry because of that.
David EdgingtonIt's a phenomenal thing that's happening.
Speaker CI mean, praise God for that.
Speaker CI'm glad that you're bringing awareness to this issue and just today, providentially, like Zach Garris, who wrote the book Masculine Christianity and who has a new book coming out, I guess in just a couple weeks at the New Christendom conference about, I think that I don't know the title of the book, I don't remember, but it's the Reformers Perspectives on Feminism.
Speaker CAnd I'm sure that will be very.
Speaker CSure that will be very popular.
Speaker CBut he tweeted about your book and Zach Garris is not a huge account, but very well respected.
Speaker CAnd so that was.
Speaker CSo maybe talk a little bit about that.
Speaker CLike to go from a one year ago, we're like, is anyone going to pay attention to this thing that I wrote eight years ago and not knowing much about the Internet or podcasts or anything like that to a year later?
Speaker CYou know, again, Zach's a very well respected author and writer and leader of the faith.
David EdgingtonYes.
David EdgingtonNo, I was very grateful for that.
David EdgingtonLike you said, it just happened this morning and I noticed that within 10 minutes there were a thousand views of that tweet that he put out about recommending my book.
David EdgingtonI thought, wow, so this is, this is going to get a lot of, a lot of help for men.
Speaker CYeah.
David EdgingtonAnd, and I admire Zach Garris.
David EdgingtonI've had some interaction with him.
David EdgingtonWe've talked about things.
David EdgingtonAnd, and his book Masculine Christianity is excellent.
Speaker CIt is.
Speaker CIt's back here on my shelf somewhere.
David EdgingtonI have that probably right, right there.
David EdgingtonYep.
David EdgingtonYeah, there's.
David EdgingtonThat's one of the three books that I recommend the men in my online group to read.
David EdgingtonMasculine Christianity.
Speaker CWhat are the other two?
David EdgingtonReal quick, while we're here, the other two are no Mere Mortals by Toby Sumter, which is excellent.
David EdgingtonYou recommended that one to me and I think, boy, that was just outstanding.
Speaker CYeah, love that.
David EdgingtonAnd the other one is It's Good to Be a Man by Michael Foster.
Speaker COh, great.
Speaker COkay.
David EdgingtonThose three books I think are excellent.
David EdgingtonThey're outstanding.
Speaker CThese are recommended to my men's group as well.
David EdgingtonGood, good.
David EdgingtonAnd that's the other thing, too, for your listeners is that I have an online support group.
David EdgingtonI've got dozens of men that their stories are almost identical, and they help each other with this.
David EdgingtonBecause I frankly can't help all these men with all of the details and the specifics of it.
David EdgingtonSo my requirement to be a part of that group is they have to talk to me personally, and I kind of vet them and make sure they're not, you know, they're not the problem.
David EdgingtonAnd then I just turned these guys loose with each other on Discord, and they help each other tremendously.
David EdgingtonGreat.
David EdgingtonGreat bunch of guys.
David EdgingtonAnd so one guy listened to the podcast that you and I did last year, and he couldn't believe that I gave out my phone number and my email address.
David EdgingtonSo he called me up, I think, a couple of weeks ago, and I said, hello, this is David.
David EdgingtonHe said, you really did give out your phone number, didn't you?
David EdgingtonI said, yeah, I just want to help guys.
David EdgingtonI mean, I'm not trying to hide.
David EdgingtonI know that could easily backfire, but, you know, I just want to help people.
David EdgingtonI'm not trying to hurt anyone.
David EdgingtonI'm trying to, you know, bring about sanctification and.
David EdgingtonAnd help Godly help for people.
David EdgingtonSo I would offer that again.
David EdgingtonMy Phone number is 602-384-4417.
David EdgingtonCall me if I can help you.
David EdgingtonI live in Phoenix, Arizona, but I do remote counseling all the time and be glad to help anybody that needs that.
David EdgingtonHelp.
David EdgingtonMen or women?
David EdgingtonI prefer to counsel men and women together, husbands and wives together.
David EdgingtonSo there's no opportunity for gossip.
David EdgingtonThere's no opportunity for siding with one person over the other.
David EdgingtonI hear the whole story that way, and I get the whole picture that way.
David EdgingtonBecause it's always going to be slanted if you only counsel with one person at a time.
David EdgingtonAnd I can't tell you how many.
David EdgingtonHow many men have gone through this.
David EdgingtonWell, my wife went to the pastor or the counselor and said, you know, I don't know what she said.
David EdgingtonAnd then they brought me in the next month, and I was automatically guilty.
David EdgingtonI didn't even get a chance to defend myself.
David EdgingtonSometimes they don't even talk to the man at all.
David EdgingtonThey just make the decision solely based on what?
David EdgingtonThe wife's testimony.
David EdgingtonI go, that's unbiblical, too.
David EdgingtonHow could you do that?
David EdgingtonAnd even churches that have supported not only spiritually, the wife burning down the marriage, but even financially helping her to end the marriage.
David EdgingtonOh, God, have mercy on these men and how horribly they're failing.
David EdgingtonPlease, if there's any pastors listening to this, please do not counsel husbands and wives separately.
David EdgingtonCounsel them together with an issue like this.
David EdgingtonCounsel them together at the same time right from the beginning.
David EdgingtonDon't do this separate counseling because it's entertaining gossip and it is destroying marriages because you're going to go on assumptions, because the wife is going to be very convincing and yet she's going to leave out a lot of things.
David EdgingtonI would say the other way, too.
David EdgingtonDon't just meet with the man.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonDon't just meet with a man without the wife there.
David EdgingtonBut if one of the spouses refuses to go for counseling, then I'll still help you.
David EdgingtonSo in other words, a husband and wife are needing help and the husband approaches me.
David EdgingtonAnd I always tell them, every time I say, let's get your wife involved in counseling before you tell me anything else, let's get your wife in here.
David EdgingtonAnd vast majority of the time, nope, she doesn't want help.
David EdgingtonShe doesn't want any counseling.
David EdgingtonShe's done.
David EdgingtonShe's out of the marriage.
David EdgingtonI say, okay, you, husband are going to need help.
David EdgingtonI'll be glad to help you.
David EdgingtonI wish your wife would so we could reconcile your marriage, But I don't want to leave you just helpless out there.
David EdgingtonYou're going to need a lot of help.
Speaker CAnd let me just take this opportunity to endorse your counseling services because that's how you and I formed a friendship.
Speaker CYes, you appeared on the podcast.
Speaker CI think it was probably about a year ago, right around this time.
Speaker CAnd then I started having problems with insomnia, which is not something I've really spoken about on the pub on the podcast yet, but I will be speaking about it.
Speaker CAnd so I recognized that this was not a physical issue.
Speaker CI had tried all the different physical things like red lights and weighted blankets and humidifiers and like, I tried all the different physical things.
Speaker CAnd then.
Speaker CAnd then I was talking to a sleep psychiatrist about behavioral therapy, about, you know, sleep routines and all this different stuff.
Speaker CAnd he's like, he said, I don't handle emotional issues, so if you want, if there's something else going on, you need to find a counselor.
Speaker CAnd so that was like a light going off, like, well, I can't go to a psychotherapist like I used to anymore because I'm a Christian now.
Speaker CAnd I had no idea how bad it was back then.
Speaker CI know now, but I even knew Back then that I can't go be part of that.
Speaker CAnd I recognized that I had your number and that.
Speaker CWell, he's a.
Speaker CHe's a biblical counselor.
Speaker CSo let me start there.
Speaker CAnd so we started.
Speaker CWe started in just biblical counseling together.
Speaker CI guess that was probably like in August, something like that.
Speaker CAnd it was over the.
Speaker CYeah, it was over the process of coming to see you in a professional capacity and then you helping me through some relationship stuff, et cetera, where it was like we built a friendship over time.
Speaker COver time as well.
Speaker CSo I got to know you as a counselor first.
Speaker CAnd so I would say that you're one of the finest counselors I've ever met.
Speaker CI mean, you're certainly the finest biblical counselor that I've ever met.
Speaker CBut I don't.
Speaker CI say that not having met a whole bunch of them.
Speaker CBut you've shown me by example what it means to be a biblical counselor.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CBecause I, again, my intention was originally to be a psychotherapist.
Speaker CThat's what I thought I would be doing right now if Covid hadn't.
Speaker CWell, you know, Covid did happen.
Speaker CAnd so if is a silly question because.
Speaker CRight, but that was.
Speaker CMy intention was to.
Speaker CWas to be a psychotherapist.
Speaker CThat was.
David EdgingtonPraise God.
David EdgingtonYou repented from that.
Speaker CYes, absolutely.
Speaker CAnd for anyone who still thinks there's any virtue or merit to psychotherapy, definitely read the book the Other Worldview by Dr.
Speaker CPeter Jones.
Speaker CHe does a whole chapter on just how wicked Carl Jung was.
Speaker CWe all know these days how wicked Freud was for the most part.
Speaker CBut like Carl Jung and Transpersonal Psychotherapy, Stanislav Grof, G R O F.
Speaker CThese are the guys behind that particular form, which is essentially the.
Speaker CThe spot.
Speaker CThe skeletal structure of the New Age.
Speaker CSo the New Age has a Jungian skeleton and it has a Buddhist heart or a Hindu heart and kind of Buddhist flesh, if you were to try and assemble that.
Speaker CBut I didn't really.
David EdgingtonDemonic spirit.
Speaker CAnd a demonic spirit.
Speaker CThat's exactly right.
Speaker CThat's exactly right.
Speaker CAnd a wicked plan, for sure.
Speaker CBut I didn't understand how much Jungianism was built into that whole worldview.
Speaker CAnd I know now, and Dr.
Speaker CPeter Jones takes that apart.
Speaker CSo seeing you in a counseling capacity has shown me.
Speaker CI haven't even read the J.
Speaker CAdams book, but from listening to the way that you've counseled me and then our conversations as well, it helps me understand just how powerful biblical counseling is and also how unpopular it is.
Speaker CThe word of God is always unpopular.
Speaker CBut to really say, like, no, there is no Authority, inside psychology.
Speaker CYou've worked me through a bunch of different stuff, like the subconscious and all this different stuff ideas that I thought these are self evident, that might not be the case.
Speaker CAnd so.
Speaker CAnd so I offer this as an endorsement of your counseling services for men in reviling marriages, women who are reviling wives, you know, couples that are stuck in this cycle, men who are struggling with these, with their own issues independently related to that, and women as well.
Speaker CBecause the Bible is the only thing that offers true healing.
Speaker CIt is the truth, not some.
David EdgingtonIt is the truth, it is the authority, and it is effective.
David EdgingtonThe people that change the most are the ones that I can convince.
David EdgingtonMeditate on the word of God, let it soak in, let it change you.
David EdgingtonLet that be what addresses every problem in your heart, bring about conviction in the soul and grant you repentance.
David EdgingtonYour life will never be the same.
David EdgingtonIt'll be so wonderful.
David EdgingtonSo the people I can convince of that, not just the people that will listen to me, but the people that will indulge their hearts and immerse themselves in scripture, those are the ones that change the best.
David EdgingtonAnd it sounds so simple and yet it is so rare that people will do that.
David EdgingtonYou know, they'll say, well, no, I need, I need some medication, I need this, I need therapy.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, you can do that, but it's not going to change your heart.
David EdgingtonYou know, medication has never changed anyone's heart.
David EdgingtonNot.
David EdgingtonNot even once.
Speaker CNot even a little bit.
Speaker CWell, maybe we can talk about this a little bit then.
Speaker CMaybe we can talk about the psychologization of culture.
Speaker CLike Abigail Schreier, I guess, wrote a book that everyone's speaking very highly about.
Speaker CI wish I could remember the name of it off the top of my head, but we talked in the beginning about trauma being this overused word.
Speaker CThe word abuse is also kind of being overused.
Speaker CAnd this idea that everything goes back to my own inner experience as the measure of all things, that's all an outgrowth of the psychologization of culture.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CEven weaponized empathy, as Joe Rigney talks about.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CAnd that's an outgrowth of that.
Speaker CAnd now it's set up as a parallel authority to the word of God.
Speaker CBut only by rooting yourself in the word of God as the sole infallible authority can you truly begin to find healing.
Speaker CBecause that generates repentance.
Speaker CRepentance is not very popular, is it?
David EdgingtonYes, it's where people get a lot of pushback when you call someone to repentance.
David EdgingtonBut it's like that's part of the gospel.
David EdgingtonIf we don't have a call to repentance, we don't have the gospel because Jesus says, repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonAnd John the Baptist said the same thing.
David EdgingtonIt's not a mystery.
David EdgingtonBut this is where we let the word of God, we turn it loose.
David EdgingtonWe say, God's word is going to change you.
David EdgingtonYour feelings are going to deceive you, your feelings are going to lead you astray.
David EdgingtonAnd what Joe Rigney and Doug Wilson talk about with empathy is sin.
David EdgingtonI address that in my book and I say, your feelings are not sovereign.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonIt's not just, okay, this is what I feel, therefore it's true and it's real.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, no, not necessarily.
David EdgingtonIn fact, probably, definitely not.
David EdgingtonBecause your feelings are going to mislead you.
David EdgingtonThey're going to lead you astray.
David EdgingtonIt's the pure milk of the word.
David EdgingtonAs James talks about the word that's implanted, you know, the word that's implanted, that that's what transforms and changes a person.
David EdgingtonPsychology might change the outer man, might change the behavior, but it doesn't change the soul, doesn't change the heart.
David EdgingtonSo that outward behavioral change that psychology can accomplish at times, it doesn't last, it doesn't endure, and it definitely does not glorify God.
David EdgingtonBut the change in the heart, where you turn away from anger, you turn away from anxieties and fears, you turn away from depression.
David EdgingtonInstead, you trust, you have faith, you build your fear of God, not your fear of man, fear of circumstances.
David EdgingtonYou learn how to endure trials.
David EdgingtonThat's what glorifies God.
David EdgingtonBecause you go God without your grace.
David EdgingtonMy grace is sufficient for you is what the Lord said to Paul when he had the thorn in the flesh.
David EdgingtonRight?
David EdgingtonThorn in the flesh.
David EdgingtonWhat do I do?
David EdgingtonThree times I asked the Lord, take it away, take it away, take it away.
David EdgingtonAnd what did the Lord say to him?
David EdgingtonMy grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect, perfect in weakness.
David EdgingtonGrace and power are parallel words.
David EdgingtonThat's what God's grace is.
David EdgingtonIt's power that works in the soul.
David EdgingtonIt enables you to overcome sin.
David EdgingtonIt enables you to change.
David EdgingtonWithout that grace, it's just shuffling the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
David EdgingtonIt's like, okay, we're just going to move everything around, but the ship is still going down.
David EdgingtonMight look a little different today, but it's not going to help you.
David EdgingtonSo it's amazing to me will that, okay, I'm going To get more people mad with this one.
Speaker CLet's go.
David EdgingtonNo, please, Lord, don't have this guy on the Will's podcast anymore.
Speaker CThat could be arranged.
David EdgingtonThat seminaries will train future pastors in Greek, in Hebrew, hermeneutics, homiletics, exegesis.
David EdgingtonGo through all of this.
David EdgingtonOh, boy, we need to understand the Word of God better so we can preach it better.
David EdgingtonGood.
David EdgingtonMy seminary did that.
David EdgingtonBut then we get to the counseling arena and we go, the Bible can't help there.
David EdgingtonYeah, we got to have psychology, we got to have psychotherapy, we got to have Freud, we got to have Jung.
David EdgingtonWe got to have.
David EdgingtonOr something.
David EdgingtonOr some integration.
David EdgingtonThat's the big word, integration, where we integrate scripture with psychotherapy.
David EdgingtonAnd we think that somehow we're going to come out with something better.
David EdgingtonAnd it is a tragedy, and it is a train wreck again.
David EdgingtonAnd we look at this and say, boy, the same things that a pastor is taught about publicly preaching and teaching the Word of God, that same thinking, that same philosophy, those same principles should be in the counseling office as well.
David EdgingtonActs 6:4.
David EdgingtonThe disciples were devoted to prayer and the ministry of the Word.
David EdgingtonAnd I talk with people often about that.
David EdgingtonI say, okay, that means that your pastor should be ministering the Word publicly.
David EdgingtonWhen he's preaching and teaching.
David EdgingtonHe's got a large group of people and he's talking to them all at once.
David EdgingtonHis authority for what he's saying is what the Word of God says.
David EdgingtonIt's not him.
David EdgingtonIt's not his training, it's not his education.
David EdgingtonIt's the Word of God.
David EdgingtonHe's ministering the Word publicly.
David EdgingtonBut now we want to minister the Word privately as well.
David EdgingtonSo there's public preaching and teaching, but there's private discipleship, counseling, helping someone one on one.
David EdgingtonAnd now you can customize the application of the Word of God to help exactly that person.
David EdgingtonYou can't do that publicly in a sermon.
David EdgingtonYou can do it to a degree, but not specifically to an individual.
David EdgingtonBut you can do that in the counseling office.
David EdgingtonIn fact, you must do that in the counseling office.
David EdgingtonYou must help that person privately.
David EdgingtonAnd you have to minister the Word of God.
David EdgingtonNot your opinions, not your feelings, not even your education or your experience.
David EdgingtonBut you minister the Word of God because the Word of God is what changes people.
David EdgingtonI don't.
David EdgingtonI always tell people, I don't change anybody.
David EdgingtonAnd if I changed you, then you need to repent from that because you shouldn't be doing it because I said so.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonYou should be changing because this is what the word of God says.
David EdgingtonAnd all I'm doing is bringing the word of God to you and saying, here's what it says.
David EdgingtonWhat should we do about this?
David EdgingtonSo we've got a lot of work to do on this, too, Will.
David EdgingtonThis is another area now.
David EdgingtonI've been a counselor for 20.
David Edgington20 years now.
David EdgingtonNo, 30 years now.
David EdgingtonThey've been full time in it for 20 years.
David EdgingtonAnd 30 years ago, when I first started, it was like, nobody wants to listen to this.
David EdgingtonIt's like, this is crazy.
David EdgingtonAnd now I think that people are starting to wake up and they're saying, boy, all of this other stuff is bankrupt.
David EdgingtonWe need what the word of God says.
David EdgingtonSo I think there is a sense of people coming alive and saying, we need something more than just the Band Aids, you know, the cisterns that won't hold water.
David EdgingtonLike Jeremiah talks about.
David EdgingtonWe need something real and substance.
David EdgingtonAnd that changes the soul, changes you on the inside.
David EdgingtonBecause once the inside changes, the outside is going to change.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonThe outside changes, but the inside doesn't.
David EdgingtonIt doesn't go the other way, but you have to.
Speaker CI think that people are recognizing the wise people are recognizing that they need it.
Speaker CBut it's very clear that culture does not want it.
David EdgingtonIt's fighting, right?
Speaker CYeah, the culture is with everybody.
Speaker CNow, when you try to explain to people, hey, that Netflix you're watching, that music you're listening to, it's the food you're eating, the things that you're choosing to do, you know, they.
Speaker CYou recognize the world is very much with you, and they don't want to.
Speaker CThey don't want to hear that.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CAnd that's the.
Speaker CThat's.
Speaker CThey don't recognize just the hooks that culture has in almost everybody.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CAnd so.
Speaker CAnd so you try to say, like, hey, we need to.
Speaker CWe need to pull this hook out.
Speaker CYou know, it doesn't even have to be something that's egregiously, obviously, sin.
Speaker CYou know what I mean?
Speaker CIt has to be like, hey, this little bit of pleasure that you're getting from the world.
Speaker CLet's say it's Netflix, right?
Speaker CWhich is almost totally degenerate now, or Amazon prime or whatever, like video.
Speaker CWe have to pull this out because you're getting poison pumped into your.
Speaker CInto your mind, into your spirit through this.
Speaker CRight?
Speaker CAnd you're not going to be able to live a godly life when you're having this whole other alternate set of values portrayed to you, whether it be through wokeness or misandry, like the Hatred of men.
Speaker CRight.
Speaker CI just yesterday interviewed Jeremy Carl who wrote a book called the Unprotected Class about anti white hatred in American culture that's been going on for 50 years.
Speaker CWe talked for about an hour.
Speaker CIt was a fantastic conversation.
Speaker CSo it's like people have been plugged into these systems.
Speaker CIt's like we have to pull that out and minister to you using the word of God.
Speaker COh, well, and then what do you get?
Speaker COh, that's patriarchy.
Speaker CThat's outdated.
Speaker CThat has the two kingdoms.
Speaker CMy kingdom is out of this world.
Speaker CAll the standard lines start flying out like, okay, we've got something right there.
David EdgingtonYeah, yeah, no, it's true.
David EdgingtonBut I'm seeing more and more people that, including the ones that I'm counseling with the reviling wives that they've gone to, psychologists and psychiatrists and secular authorities and they go, they're not helping me.
David EdgingtonYou seem to be speaking about things and you have a lot of Bible references in your book.
David EdgingtonMaybe you'll say something different.
David EdgingtonI go, I guarantee you it's going to be something different.
David EdgingtonThere's going to be food for your soul.
David EdgingtonIt's going to change you.
David EdgingtonIt's going to transform you.
David EdgingtonAnd I mean you commit your way to it and I guarantee you it will, it will be effective.
David EdgingtonI won't always be effective.
David EdgingtonBut the word of God will never fail you.
David EdgingtonHis word will never return to him.
David EdgingtonVoid.
David EdgingtonRight?
David EdgingtonHis word goes out.
David EdgingtonIsaiah 55.
David EdgingtonIt never comes back empty.
David EdgingtonIt never comes back void.
David EdgingtonIt always occurs, accomplishes what God purposes for it.
David EdgingtonGod has a purpose in his word and it's going to be effective.
David EdgingtonYou know, another resource or set of resources that I would commend as well.
David EdgingtonNot only Jay Adams books on noether counseling.
David EdgingtonYou know, those are, those were excellent.
David EdgingtonThose were my training ground.
David EdgingtonBut the Puritans, just reading the Puritans, the banner of truth.
David EdgingtonPaperback editions of all of these great men, Watson and Flavel and Owens, you're going to see exactly how you use the word of God in changing the soul, in addressing the problems and the agonies of the soul.
David EdgingtonThe reason that they're so effective is they were written before psychology was even a thing.
David EdgingtonThey were written in the 1600s.
David EdgingtonSo it wasn't, you know, wasn't even around.
David EdgingtonSo that's why it's like all we have is the word of God.
David EdgingtonLet's use it to help people.
David EdgingtonAnd they did.
David EdgingtonThey were effective with it, tremendously effective.
David EdgingtonSo I would commend that to your listeners too.
David EdgingtonRead the Puritans read them.
David EdgingtonRead Jonathan Edwards.
David EdgingtonYou want somebody that's going to blow your mind, read Jonathan Edwards.
David EdgingtonHe's my favorite theologian.
David EdgingtonHe's the one that I think he taught me more than anybody ever has in my life.
David EdgingtonAnd Religious Affections is my favorite book.
David EdgingtonNothing better than that in my mind.
Speaker CThis is how much for listeners, this is how much I love this guy.
Speaker CI handed you my phone and like, here you go.
Speaker CSent you to Amazon to go find a copy of that of Religious Affections by Jonathan Edwards that you liked and just said, go ahead and order it.
Speaker CI just let you order a book for me from my phone.
Speaker CYou go, just.
Speaker CYou do that.
David EdgingtonYou're sitting at the dinner table and you're like, what?
David EdgingtonI remember that.
Speaker CThat's right.
David EdgingtonYeah.
Speaker CI got it up on the shelf right there.
David EdgingtonGood, good.
David EdgingtonI think I've read Religious Affection seven times.
Speaker COh, wow.
David EdgingtonIt's the only book I've ever read like that.
David EdgingtonI mean, I've read the Bible more than seven times, but other than that, I've never read a book seven times.
David EdgingtonAnd I go, wow, it is so deep and so rich, so incredibly thorough.
David EdgingtonAnd what always amazed me.
David EdgingtonHere's another tangent, Will.
David EdgingtonWhat always amazed me as I'm reading and listening, you know, reading the sermons of Jonathan Edwards, and I go, wow, they are so deep and intricate and theologically robust.
David EdgingtonAnd he's preaching to a bunch of unsophisticated farmers.
David EdgingtonDoes that tell you something about our education system?
David EdgingtonRight?
Speaker CIt really does.
David EdgingtonHere he's studying Latin and Greek at 10 years old and going to Yale, and you know what I mean?
David EdgingtonIt's like, okay, what are we doing?
David EdgingtonWell, we got PhDs in gender studies.
David EdgingtonThat's right.
David EdgingtonSo, you know, just the fact that you and I could read that and go, man, I got to read this so slowly because it's so deep and rich and is so intricately woven.
David EdgingtonHis thought processes are incredible.
David EdgingtonAnd we go, I can't think like that.
David EdgingtonI want to, but I can't.
David EdgingtonAnd it's because we've been dumbed down in our education system.
Speaker CEverything.
David EdgingtonGod commends you people that will study and read for yourselves.
David EdgingtonStudy to be a workman approved.
David EdgingtonStudy the word of God that you're approved because you know what the word of God teaches you.
Speaker CAmen.
David EdgingtonCan't emphasize that enough.
Speaker CAnd we just have a few minutes left.
Speaker CI know you have some men to counsel, but maybe just to close things out, you can talk a little bit about, you know, some of the garden variety things that men deal with that are that it's not reviling wives, but that young men, older men that deal with completely independent of their interactions with women say that biblical counseling is also good for.
Speaker CBecause again, as we talked about, people will turn to psychology, self help, pop psychology, journaling, stoicism or whatever as a way to make these outer changes.
Speaker CBut maybe we can talk a little bit about how the Bible can minister to everyone's everyday challenges as well.
David EdgingtonAbsolutely.
David EdgingtonYeah.
David EdgingtonNo, I think another big area that I see a lot of activity in is pornography.
David EdgingtonMen getting gripped by pornography, sexual sin, but specifically pornography.
David EdgingtonAnd it is deadly.
David EdgingtonIt is devastating.
David EdgingtonIt destroys not only marriages, but it destroys souls as well.
David EdgingtonAnd I've actually written a book on that.
David EdgingtonIt's called Pornography as a Murderer, the Suicide of the Soul.
David EdgingtonAnd I address that because it's a murderer in the sense that the enemy uses pornography to murder your soul.
David EdgingtonAnd yet it's the suicide of the soul.
David EdgingtonYou're doing it to yourself.
David EdgingtonYou are ruining your own life.
David EdgingtonAnd this is a massive problem, not just with young men, but older men too.
David EdgingtonMiddle aged men, older men, absolutely destructive.
David EdgingtonMen having the courage to lead in their families is another big area that I talk about.
David EdgingtonYou know, I see that very often as well, men that are too passive and they're too afraid to lead well in their homes.
David EdgingtonAnd we need that, you know, 1 Corinthians 16, that, you know, being a man, being, you know, being strong in the Lord, in the strength of his might.
David EdgingtonI see a lot of anxiety.
David EdgingtonSince COVID anxiety has been off the charts.
David EdgingtonA big problem.
David EdgingtonMen and women, not just.
David EdgingtonNot just men.
David EdgingtonPeople are afraid.
David EdgingtonSeeing what's happening with tyranny in the world.
David EdgingtonPropaganda that is just pretty much in every fabric of society.
David EdgingtonPeople are afraid.
David EdgingtonPeople are fearful.
David EdgingtonThey're worried.
David EdgingtonThey're thinking, what's the future going to be like?
David EdgingtonWhat's it going to be like for my kids and my grandkids?
David EdgingtonWe have to teach about faith, about trusting God, about trust the Lord with all your heart.
David EdgingtonDon't lean on your own understanding.
David EdgingtonIn all your ways, acknowledge him and you'll make straight your paths.
David EdgingtonProverbs 3, 5 and 6.
David EdgingtonSo anxiety is another massive issue.
David EdgingtonAnger, another big area.
David EdgingtonWe talked a little bit about anger and people just being bitter over what's happened in society and in their families.
David EdgingtonPeople getting a pass, sorry, people getting a pass for their anger, not being held accountable for it.
David EdgingtonThat's a massive issue as well.
David EdgingtonAnd again, the word of God addresses all of these things.
David EdgingtonIt addresses every single one of these in a beautiful and effective and God glorifying way.
David EdgingtonSo there's no problem of living that Scripture does not address.
David EdgingtonNone.
David EdgingtonAnd that's an incredible encouragement.
David EdgingtonI could not do what I do every day if it weren't for the breadth and the depth of the Word of God.
David EdgingtonIt covers everything.
David EdgingtonNothing new under the sun.
David EdgingtonAll of these things are addressed in Scripture.
David EdgingtonAnd you let the Spirit of God bring the Word of God to convict you and say, I need help.
David EdgingtonYou're on the right path, but you keep your sin hidden.
David EdgingtonYou cover it and you don't want anybody to know about it.
David EdgingtonYou're not going to prosper.
David EdgingtonYou're not going to prosper.
Speaker CWas one of the reasons, one of the many reasons I'm so grateful for our friendship is that in my entire faith walk, which really hasn't been that long, you know, coming to understand the power of the Word of God in a spiritual sense, yes, absolutely.
Speaker CComing to understand the reliability of the Word of God in a theological sense, yes, absolutely.
Speaker CBut to understand the healing power of the Word of God in a, we'll say, emotional, moral sense, you'd say, and life, life reform.
Speaker CTrue life reform.
Speaker CThe way that you, you, you model that, the way that you embody that, the way that you communicate that, the way that you invite and have invited, even before we became friends, invited me to participate in that process.
Speaker CAnd the things that that has shown me has been an enormous part of my sanctification over the past six to nine months since we started doing counseling together.
Speaker CIt feels like it's actually been quite a while that we've known each other, but it hasn't been all that long.
Speaker CThat's the magnitude of the impact that you've had on me.
Speaker CAnd I'm grateful to hear you say all those things because it's true.
Speaker CAnd so few pastors or influencers or content creators, whatever, inside, inside formal church structures, outside on social media, are willing to say these simple truths that the Word of God can and does do this.
Speaker CAnd that's all you need.
Speaker CMan, woman, married couple, that is.
Speaker CThat's all you need.
Speaker CI need this other thing.
Speaker CNo, you actually don't.
Speaker CIf you submit to what the Word of God has to say, it's been an enormous blessing that you've shared with me in addition to all the ways you've blessed me with friendship and brotherhood as well.
David EdgingtonAmen.
David EdgingtonOne final thing.
David EdgingtonI would say Psalm 119, an incredible chapter.
David EdgingtonYou know where I'm going with this incredible chapter?
David Edgington176 verses it's an acrostic, which means that it is poetry that is written in a very specific way.
David EdgingtonSo it's designed after the Hebrew Alphabet, 22 letters in the Hebrew Alphabet, eight verses for each of those letters.
David EdgingtonAnd all of these verses talk about the different benefits of the Word of God.
David EdgingtonAnd where I like to encourage people is Psalm 119, verse 24.
David EdgingtonYour testimonies are my delight.
David EdgingtonThey are my counselors.
David EdgingtonSo first of all, what God says, I want to delight in that.
David EdgingtonI want to look at that and say, whatever God says, even if it's rebuking me, I want to delight in that.
David EdgingtonI say, that's good for me.
David EdgingtonIt's going to encourage me.
David EdgingtonI love that, too.
David EdgingtonWhatever God says through the scriptures, you want it to be your delight.
David EdgingtonYou want it to look at.
David EdgingtonYou want to look at it and say, this should have an internal effect on me where I'm drawn to this, and I love this, and I want this, and I want it more and more.
David EdgingtonAnd then the second phrase, they are my counselors.
David EdgingtonSo then I remind people, I say, I'm not really the counselor.
David EdgingtonThe word of God is the counselor.
David EdgingtonAnd that's what you want.
David EdgingtonYou want God's word to change you.
David EdgingtonSo if you delight in it and you're looking to it for the answers to all the troubles you have in your life, it's just turn it loose and let God work in you.
David EdgingtonDelight in that.
David EdgingtonAnd look for him to counsel you.
David EdgingtonLook for him to correct you.
David EdgingtonLook for him to encourage you.
David EdgingtonLook for him to teach you the truth.
David EdgingtonGod listens.
David EdgingtonGod hears.
David EdgingtonGod is very eager to be involved in your life.
David EdgingtonAnd some people, they just, you know, they block him and he won't work.
David EdgingtonSo.
Speaker CAmen.
David EdgingtonNice way to end, Will.
Speaker CVery nice.
Speaker CVery nice.
Speaker CThank you, David.
Speaker CPraise God.
Speaker CPraise God for the wisdom.
David EdgingtonBrother, thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker CYou're welcome.
Speaker CWe should talk more often.
Speaker COh, wait.
David EdgingtonOh, wait.
David EdgingtonWe do.
Speaker CAll right.
Speaker CWell, where would you like to send people to find out more about you and what you do?
David EdgingtonWell, again, I'll repeat my phone number.
David Edgington602-384-4417.
Speaker CBold.
David EdgingtonI'm just a masochist.
David EdgingtonGo ahead, it's okay.
David EdgingtonOr email me.
David EdgingtonCounselthewordm me.
David EdgingtonSo that's council.
David EdgingtonC O U N S E L the word W O r d at PM as in PaulMichael me, Michael, Edward, contact me.
David EdgingtonI'll be glad to help you.
Speaker CWonderful.
Speaker CAnd God willing, when this comes out, should have a new website for people to visit as well.
David EdgingtonAmen.
David EdgingtonAmen.
David EdgingtonAnd thank you for helping me on my website, too.
David EdgingtonIt needs a lot of work.
Speaker CWe'll get there.
Speaker CIt's less work than it seems, I think.
Speaker CWell, praise God for you, brother.
Speaker CSo grateful.
David EdgingtonSo good seeing you again.
Speaker CAmen.
David EdgingtonThanks for listening to this episode of the Renaissance of Men podcast.
David EdgingtonVisit us on the web@renofmen.com or on your favorite social media platform at Ren of Men.
David EdgingtonThis is the Renaissance of men.
David EdgingtonYou are the renaissance.